Hon. Leo Housakos: Senator Gold, I was happy yesterday to hear you acknowledge the struggles being faced by Canadians, especially when it comes to the soaring cost of food and housing prices.

Also yesterday, incidentally, I was even happier to see the Honourable Pierre Poilievre introduce a bill called “Building Homes Not Bureaucracy.” While your government says it will drop the GST on construction of rental properties, conversely, you are threatening an extra tax to supposedly somehow combat the soaring food inflation Canadians are dealing with because of your fiscal mismanagement.

How does that work, Senator Gold? How does adding a new tax, which will be passed on to consumers, help to lower the cost of food for Canadians, who will have to choose between eating and heating during these winter months?

Senator Housakos: Will your government commit to getting rid of that carbon tax?

Senator Housakos: Yes, we’re all very well aware of Liberal action. It’s called public relations exercises by calling grocers here to Ottawa and basically saying, “The burden to solve the problem is on you,” because of the incompetence of your government. This is the same government that six years ago promised in their electoral program to get rid of a GST on the construction of rental housing in this country — six years ago. Talk about always trying to catch up to the curve.

The truth of the matter is that when you’re putting in place a carbon tax, which is going to be punishing middle-class and working-class Canadians who are trying to heat their homes, put shoes on their children’s feet and drive their children to school, that’s a tax that is directly causing inflation and is directly causing a growth in the cost of living, and your government is doing nothing. All you have to do is put a pause on that tax.

I know you love taking money out of people’s pockets as a government, but put a pause on that tax so that Canadians can have a break.

Hon. Leo Housakos: Senator Gold, in your answer to Senator Plett just a second ago, you acknowledged finally that things are not great, but things are not just not great. Things are in a state of catastrophe right now, yet we had our Minister of Finance at the beginning of the summer doing this massive victory lap, stating that “Canada’s plan to bring down inflation is working.” She said it was a “milestone moment,” and went on to say:

I really want to thank Canadians, it has been a really tough time economically since COVID first hit ... and this is a really good moment ... It has been a real struggle for Canadians and the Canadian economy to get back down to 2.8%, and I am really grateful to everyone who has ... (stayed) the course.

“Inflation in Canada has come down!” she claimed with excitement.

I don’t know what planet Minister Freeland and Prime Minister Trudeau live on, because inflation right now is at the highest level it has been in 35 years. We just got the figures out for the month of August, and inflation is well into 4%. All economists are claiming it will continue to grow until the end of the year, and they suspect we will have more rate hikes by the Bank of Canada. And we’ve had, by the way, 10 bank rate hikes since March of 2022, which is pummelling working-class Canadians.

The question is simple: Will you finally acknowledge as a government that the Freeland-Trudeau economics of more debt and more deficit are not working and are leading to record-high inflation, and will you commit to finally putting in place a fiscal anchor, which we so desperately need?

Senator Housakos: That is the question. The question, government leader, is: Will your government make the commitment of axing the tax?

Senator Housakos: Government leader, the question is not employment or unemployment. Canadians can work as hard as they want, but when they go to the grocery store, they can’t afford to buy food to feed their families.

And you want to go into a statistics war? Did you know that in the month of August, the cost of lettuce went up 94%? You want to talk about statistics? Rent in this country has gone up 6.5% in the last couple of months. I can go on and on and on, if you want to go through every single commodity in this country, not to mention the fact that mortgages are costing Canadians 31% more right now than they did a few months ago.

The fact of the matter is that when it comes to the cost of living right now in this country, working-class and poor Canadians are suffering to a degree we haven’t seen before, and for the first time in more than 153 years, young people in this country are feeling pessimistic and hopeless, and that they will not be able to aspire to the kind of lifestyle and success that their parents and grandparents had.

We talked earlier about inflation and the runaway debts and deficits of this government, and as usual, you’re blaming the cost of living on global issues, international issues and the cost of oil and energy. Well, your carbon tax on oil and energy has not helped.

Hon. Leo Housakos: Senator Gold, as we break for the summer holiday, Canadians continue to suffer from the results of the inflationary Trudeau economy. The hardest-hit Canadians are going to be whacked a second time by the Trudeau government with a second carbon tax on July 1 — on Canada Day, of all days. As we all know, senators, middle-class and poor Canadians spend a higher percentage of their earnings on fuel, food and the things they need to sustain their families. We have also seen reports come out from the Parliamentary Budget Officer highlighting how this action — the second carbon tax — is going to cost Canadian families thousands of dollars more over the next decade from coast to coast to coast.

While your government continues to say, in their talking points, that inflation is out of their control, and there is nothing they can do about it — you said it a moment ago in regard to a question from Senator Martin — I have a simple question: In order to bring some relief to poor and middle-class Canadians, can you press pause on this cruel second carbon tax?

Senator Housakos: Let me get this straight: After your first carbon tax, where you pummelled middle-class Canadians into the ground, forcing them to become poor, while you have had no impact on your environmental targets — you’ve hit none of them; it’s zero — you are telling me that a second carbon tax to continue your insanity in your failed policy of saving the environment — by killing poor and middle-class Canadians — is somehow a magic bullet. Congratulations — you have failed on your environmental targets; you have succeeded in setting record-high inflation; and you have succeeded in growing the number of poor Canadians in this country, as well as the dwindling middle class. The question is simple: Will your government, at least, try some of these common-sense policies that we are putting forward as an opposition, and put a pause on this second carbon tax in order to give badly needed relief to middle-class and poor Canadians who are suffering while we go on vacation?

Hon. Leo Housakos: My question is for the government leader. My question has to do with Justin Trudeau and his government’s monetary policy, or, should I say, their lack thereof.

As the Trudeau government has been spending like drunken sailors, their achievements have been record-high deficits, record-high debt and we now see record-high interest rates that Canadians haven’t seen or felt in over two decades. Canadians are paying a heavy price for these bad policies. They’re hurting. We see it; we feel it.

My question is simple: Why is it that Prime Minister Trudeau and his government don’t hear them and see them? Why is it that you got up on this floor yesterday and took pride for these economic records rather than accept shame and defeat for them? My question is really this: How come?

Senator Housakos: The only things your government can take credit for are the exasperating monetary policies that are exacerbating inflation. That’s the only thing you can take credit for.

I can say something else: One thing about drunken sailors, Senator Gold, is that at least they spend their own money.

Now, my question has to do with the Bank of Canada, which, over the last few months, has acknowledged their error in following policy that has been put out by this government when it comes to dealing with inflation. They did delay, and their delay has exacerbated the situation, and now we’re starting to see it in compressed interest rate hikes. But at least the Bank of Canada has acknowledged that they were wrong in their forecast.

When will your government start acknowledging that you were wrong with your monetary policy and your approach to spending? The only thing the Trudeau government has ever done is point fingers and blame everywhere except in their direction. When will your government assume responsibility that your monetary policy over the last eight years has led us to the brink of economic catastrophe?

Hon. Leo Housakos: Senator Gold, can you tell this chamber how much your government is spending this fiscal year on the servicing of and interest payments on the Trudeau debt? Can you compare that to the 1.29% of GDP that your government is spending on national security, defence forces and our NATO obligations?

Honourable colleagues, can you imagine if we had to carry out an operation today like we did this week in 1944 with our Canadian troops? What would happen if they had to carry out an operation on behalf of Canadians in the name of freedom? I can tell you what would happen, Senator Gold: We would be in quicksand. I read the CBC story a couple of days ago where we have Canadian soldiers paying out of their pockets for helmets and basic equipment that they need to do their job. One just has to shake their head.

Why is this government spending so much more on interest to pay for the debt that Trudeau has accumulated compared to supplying resources needed by our forces? Isn’t your government — the Prime Minister and its ministers — ashamed of the fact that you’re spending tons more to service the debt than you are to supplying our national forces with the equipment they need?

Senator Housakos: The government should be ashamed. When you have soldiers paying out of their pockets for helmets and the basic equipment they need to do their job, you should be ashamed. The fact that you’re not shows how shameless this government is.

But let’s return to the core of this issue and the problem that we have: You’re spending $44 billion in interest payments to service the Trudeau debt. That’s where the real shame and the problem are. If you’re not ashamed that our military is on their knees, are you ashamed that 6.5 million Canadians can’t find a doctor in this country? Are you ashamed that your government is paying just as much right now to service the Trudeau debt as you are in Canada Health Transfer payments to provinces, which is probably one of the reasons why 6.5 million Canadians can’t find a doctor? Are you, at least, not worthy of accepting that as shameful?

Senator Housakos: Health care —

Hon. Leo Housakos: My question is for the government leader. Now that we have confirmed from the answer you have given the Leader of the Opposition here in the Senate that your government doesn’t care much about dealing with foreign interference, let’s try another subject matter, which is the record that your government has set when it comes to food banks in this country and the pummelling that the middle class and the poor are receiving in light of these terrible economic policies of your government.

I am going back to a question I asked before the break, and I’m hoping, now that you have had a week to reflect on it and maybe go to your Liberal colleagues in the Prime Minister’s office or maybe even called your Minister of Finance, you can answer the question. It’s a simple question. Can you tell the Senate and Canadians how much your government, the Trudeau government, is paying in interest payments on the debt for this fiscal year?

Senator Housakos: Government leader, it is really remarkable that three weeks after getting this question, you can’t answer in a transparent and honest forthwith fashion. It’s not a complicated question.

I think I understand why your government refuses to answer the question. I would be embarrassed as well if I were part of a government that is paying $44 billion of interest this fiscal year on the debt that you have doubled since you have come into power. I would be ashamed to actually come up with that number. You have had ample opportunity to answer the question.

I can understand the shame, because in this fiscal year your government is about to spend as much money on the interest on the national debt as you are in health transfer payments, which explains why one in five Canadians — and I would venture to say one in four in some provinces — don’t even have a family doctor.

I have another question for you, and it’s an even simpler one. If you look at this current fiscal situation, your government’s spending is almost even on interest payments on the debt and health transfer payments.

In 2015, I was a member of this chamber when the government at the time was spending $27 billion in interest payments on debt that previous governments had accumulated. It was less than two thirds of what they were paying in health transfer payments to the provinces.

If you weren’t a Liberal government representative in this chamber and you were an average Canadian, which one of those two fiscal pictures would you prefer to have as a Canadian citizen?

Hon. Leo Housakos: My question is for the government leader in the Senate. It’s always comical to hear him lecture the Leader of the Opposition about respecting this institution. The truth of the matter is that your government has been continuously disrespectful of Parliament. Just in the last few days, we had the Minister of Finance not answer the questions of a member of the House of Commons and call him a “party hack.” That same minister goes to a committee in the House of Commons that we were filibustering for weeks to get the Minister of Finance to show up to answer basic questions, and when she does, she says she’s tired of Conservative “fiscal fearmongering.” Well, we’re tired of Liberal fiscal incompetence, government leader.

Senator Housakos: At the end of the day, we ask respectful questions on behalf of taxpayers and we’re obligated answers.

I’ll ask you in the same words and polite fashion the question that the parliamentarian asked the Minister of Finance. Can you tell Canadians how much we’re spending or are projected to spend on interest on the debt this upcoming fiscal year?

Senator Housakos: Government leader, we’re asked to vote on budget bills in this place. We approve budget bills. You’re the Leader of the Government and you don’t know that particular amount of money is $43.9 billion? I find that unbelievable. It has been unbelievable for days now, both in the House and in this chamber. We’re asking the government a basic question, and it leads to a problem where Canadians have a lack of confidence in this government. The fact is that you’re spending more on debt interest management than you are on health care transfers in this country. That’s probably why the government doesn’t even want to acknowledge the amount of $43.9 billion. It’s embarrassing and shameful.

Is it just that the minister and your government have utter contempt for Parliament and for the requirement to have to submit to our questions? Because the truth is, government leader, for weeks we’ve seen that in response to the attempts on the part of the opposition to get basic answers. When it was all over, the minister went on to accuse the member of Parliament of bullying her. Imagine, every time the opposition asks questions, we’re bullying and being partisan and so on. We’re just doing the job that Canadians have sent us here to do.

You do it too, government leader. Every member of the Trudeau government does. You denigrate our parliamentary institution and the job of the opposition on a regular basis. You put Parliament in such a negative light every time you get up and criticize us for criticizing the government, because that is our fundamental role.

My question to you and every member of the Trudeau government, for that matter — and I’d love to get an answer — is: Who do you think you are in this chamber and where do you think you are? It’s a simple question. Who are you in this chamber, what is your title and where are you?

Hon. Leo Housakos: I want to follow up on the questioning from the opposition leader with regard to Prime Minister Trudeau’s incompetence.

You have to admit, government leader, that it takes a special type of incompetence to increase the public service in this country by 53%, spending $21 billion more in the public service while achieving what? — the largest public service strike in the history of the country. The Prime Minister has achieved this marvellous realization while spending $22 billion on outside consultants.

Honourable senators, that is $1,400 per year, per household, for those outside consultants.

You have to admit, government leader, that is a special type of ability. Can you please share with this chamber what kind of skill set and what kinds of policies are required in order to achieve this high level of incompetence?

Senator Housakos: I know that you do not accept my assertion and that you cannot answer my question. However, the reality is that while you’ve spent like drunken sailors, the result should be that every single pothole in the company should be filled, infrastructure should be pristine, all Canadians should have doctors, our health care system should be accelerating, our education system should be the best in the country and we should have passports arriving at our homes within minutes. I could go on and on, but these are some facts that you’re just not willing to accept.

I’ll give you a few more facts. Government leader, right now the average Canadian spends over $2,000 per month in rent. In the Greater Toronto Area it is over $3,000 per month. This year, families will spend $1,065 more in groceries. The truth of the matter is that this is a result of the government’s free spending style with no fiscal anchor.

The truth is that you came into power in 2015 promising to be the government that would defend working-class and middle-class Canadians and those working hard to join the middle class. When you look at these statistics, your government and its policies have pummelled the middle class and poured pain on the poor in this country.

The question is simple: Will you apologize — you, the Prime Minister and Minister Freeland — for the pain that has been bestowed on the middle class and the poor, and will you finally acknowledge that you have to change course vis-à-vis your fiscal policies?