Hon. Leo Housakos: Senator Gold, can you tell this chamber how much your government is spending this fiscal year on the servicing of and interest payments on the Trudeau debt? Can you compare that to the 1.29% of GDP that your government is spending on national security, defence forces and our NATO obligations?

Honourable colleagues, can you imagine if we had to carry out an operation today like we did this week in 1944 with our Canadian troops? What would happen if they had to carry out an operation on behalf of Canadians in the name of freedom? I can tell you what would happen, Senator Gold: We would be in quicksand. I read the CBC story a couple of days ago where we have Canadian soldiers paying out of their pockets for helmets and basic equipment that they need to do their job. One just has to shake their head.

Why is this government spending so much more on interest to pay for the debt that Trudeau has accumulated compared to supplying resources needed by our forces? Isn’t your government — the Prime Minister and its ministers — ashamed of the fact that you’re spending tons more to service the debt than you are to supplying our national forces with the equipment they need?

Senator Housakos: Government leader, we’re asked to vote on budget bills in this place. We approve budget bills. You’re the Leader of the Government and you don’t know that particular amount of money is $43.9 billion? I find that unbelievable. It has been unbelievable for days now, both in the House and in this chamber. We’re asking the government a basic question, and it leads to a problem where Canadians have a lack of confidence in this government. The fact is that you’re spending more on debt interest management than you are on health care transfers in this country. That’s probably why the government doesn’t even want to acknowledge the amount of $43.9 billion. It’s embarrassing and shameful.

Is it just that the minister and your government have utter contempt for Parliament and for the requirement to have to submit to our questions? Because the truth is, government leader, for weeks we’ve seen that in response to the attempts on the part of the opposition to get basic answers. When it was all over, the minister went on to accuse the member of Parliament of bullying her. Imagine, every time the opposition asks questions, we’re bullying and being partisan and so on. We’re just doing the job that Canadians have sent us here to do.

You do it too, government leader. Every member of the Trudeau government does. You denigrate our parliamentary institution and the job of the opposition on a regular basis. You put Parliament in such a negative light every time you get up and criticize us for criticizing the government, because that is our fundamental role.

My question to you and every member of the Trudeau government, for that matter — and I’d love to get an answer — is: Who do you think you are in this chamber and where do you think you are? It’s a simple question. Who are you in this chamber, what is your title and where are you?

Senator Housakos: Government leader, the only thing this government’s wild and overkill spending has achieved is to create historic inflation that, again, is pummelling middle-class and poor working Canadians. This government is oblivious to the fact that interest rates can rise at any moment. That’s why, a year ago, we did have one of the best debt-to-GDP ratios in the world, as we did in 2015, but we are in decline there. We are falling behind. If interest rates go unexpectedly, about which you guys were shocked — it went from 2% a year and a half ago to 5% — wait until it gets to 7% or 8%. What kinds of excuses will we hear from this government then?

And yes, the Prime Minister lied; he misled Canadians when he made a commitment to balance the budget by 2019. In this town, we have to start coming up to speed with the fact that when we mislead taxpayers, we have to account for it somehow and not double down.

In this budget tabled a few days ago, your Minister of Finance has added $63 billion of new debt. Do you think that’s fiscally responsible when we’re on the eve of a recession?

Senator Housakos: Senator, of course, in the budget you talked about the Canada growth fund. Well, I can tell you that the only thing we have seen, over the last few years, that has been growing is — number one — deficits in this country because we’ve seen this government run deficits year after year. We have seen growth in the debt. We have a historic debt right now in this country — thanks, of course, in large part to successive budgets this government has passed.

Of course, as a former auditor yourself and a banker, you must be very concerned right now that, over the last couple of years, we’re spending significantly more to service the debt than we did a couple of years ago. As interest rates continue to climb, in large part because of inflationary policies — and as you have seen in this particular bill as well, you talk about stimulants. You talk about injection of funds which, in effect, are increasing taxes. You talked about a program where you’re taxing banks and insurance companies, and somehow the government makes it look like they are taxing the rich, but the truth of the matter is that will be passed on as well to Canadian consumers through higher insurance premiums, banking fees and so on and so forth.

Are you concerned that we are not doing enough to bring spending down, and to control the debt and deficit — and, as a result, as interest rates are growing, curb the interest we’re paying on the national debt?

Senator Loffreda: Senator Housakos, there is always a concern. If I take a look at the last financial statement — as you know, I love the numbers — our debt stands at $1.134 trillion as of March 31, 2022. The federal debt-to-GDP ratio was 45.5% — down from 47.5% in the previous year. As reported by the International Monetary Fund, or IMF, Canada’s total government net debt-to-GDP ratio, which includes the net debt of the federal, provincial, territorial and local governments, as well as the net assets held in the Canada Pension Plan and the Quebec Pension Plan, stood at 33.2% in 2021. This is the lowest among the group of G7 countries, which the IMF expects recorded an average net debt of 101.2% of GDP the same year.

Obviously, interest rates are increasing. Like I said, this bill brings in net revenues. But to return to the Canada growth fund, because that’s the more relevant question here in this bill — in our committee, there was worry, or concern, about the permanent structure not being in place; the $2 billion is for the purchase of non-voting shares. But in my experience with many technology companies, the largest challenge to an acquisition was the integration.

In this case, the Canada growth fund — and I would always ask the technology companies, “Why are you merging, or why are we acquiring the company? Why don’t we have a clean slate or a blank sheet?” Because technology evolves so quickly that the equipment is obsolete; the ideas are obsolete. So it’s important to have a clean slate, move it forward, come up with creative new ideas and get the proper CEO and proper board in place.

The Canada growth fund, in this situation, is the right decision. It’s going forward. The technical backgrounder says it all.

I’m comfortable that the $2 billion is a fine investment. It’s to keep up with our major trading partner, the U.S., and many countries around the world. I have the list here of all the countries that have invested around the world. We’re just investing a portion of that. If we look around the world, the European Union has invested €26.2 billion, the Netherlands has invested €13 billion, France has invested €7 billion and Australia has invested $10 billion.

So I think that $2 billion for the Canada growth fund for start‑up costs to put it together with a clean slate and technology is important because the infrastructure is obsolete. At times, it’s important to start with a clean slate, a clean sheet of paper and the results are much better.

Like I said, the financial statement is here. I could spend 10 minutes going through it. But what is important is that we are in a better financial position than other G7 countries. We rank at the top of the list in many aspects of many measures and metrics. Inflation is not the only metric to measure economic prosperity. Other measures do so, such as job growth and job creation. There are 1 million job vacancies in Canada, and there are 1 million people not working in Canada. It’s important to bring solutions in this chamber and to look at solutions.

I’m comfortable with the bill. Thank you for your question.

Senator Housakos: Government leader, the only reason Canada still has a half-decent debt-to-GDP ratio in the world is because your government inherited the best GDP-to-debt ratio in the world in 2015, which has been constantly going down over the last seven years.

Furthermore, the other things you are champions of are setting record-high debts and deficits in this country and, while doing all that, running up inflation that is devastating middle-class Canadians and those working hard to join it.

My other question for you is linked to this inflation problem we have. Energy costs are scheduled to skyrocket this winter. Again, you’re going to say I’m looking to hold somebody responsible. No, I am trying to figure out the reasons for this so maybe your government can change course.

The Chancellor of Germany was here in Canada recently. He called on Canada to provide more liquefied natural gas, or LNG, and more clean, Canadian energy to Europeans in this time of need. Canada doesn’t have the infrastructure or capacity to do that today.

The question is, in large part, because your government has been very irresponsible and lacking balance in dealing with our energy sector and the environment thanks to policies like Bill C-69 and Bill C-48 that your government passed.

Will you acknowledge that your lack of balance in dealing with the energy sector and the environment has led to the catastrophe of higher energy prices that are around the corner, coupled with the inflation from this government?