Senator Housakos: Government leader, we’re asked to vote on budget bills in this place. We approve budget bills. You’re the Leader of the Government and you don’t know that particular amount of money is $43.9 billion? I find that unbelievable. It has been unbelievable for days now, both in the House and in this chamber. We’re asking the government a basic question, and it leads to a problem where Canadians have a lack of confidence in this government. The fact is that you’re spending more on debt interest management than you are on health care transfers in this country. That’s probably why the government doesn’t even want to acknowledge the amount of $43.9 billion. It’s embarrassing and shameful.

Is it just that the minister and your government have utter contempt for Parliament and for the requirement to have to submit to our questions? Because the truth is, government leader, for weeks we’ve seen that in response to the attempts on the part of the opposition to get basic answers. When it was all over, the minister went on to accuse the member of Parliament of bullying her. Imagine, every time the opposition asks questions, we’re bullying and being partisan and so on. We’re just doing the job that Canadians have sent us here to do.

You do it too, government leader. Every member of the Trudeau government does. You denigrate our parliamentary institution and the job of the opposition on a regular basis. You put Parliament in such a negative light every time you get up and criticize us for criticizing the government, because that is our fundamental role.

My question to you and every member of the Trudeau government, for that matter — and I’d love to get an answer — is: Who do you think you are in this chamber and where do you think you are? It’s a simple question. Who are you in this chamber, what is your title and where are you?

Hon. Leo Housakos (Acting Leader of the Opposition): Minister, last month, your department provided a response to questions on the Senate Order Paper related to the procurement of two Polar-class icebreakers for the Canadian Coast Guard. One of the questions concerned the budget for this project. Your department refused to provide any estimate as to what this project would cost, despite the fact that the Parliamentary Budget Officer provided an estimate of more than $7 billion. The Trudeau government has said that the first ship will be in service in 2030 — seven years from now — yet you don’t even have a budget estimate that you can share with Parliament and the people of Canada.

Minister, you are either unwilling or unable to provide that number, and neither option is acceptable to Canadians. Do you have an estimate as to what that project will cost, and will you share it with us today?

Senator Housakos: Senator, of course, in the budget you talked about the Canada growth fund. Well, I can tell you that the only thing we have seen, over the last few years, that has been growing is — number one — deficits in this country because we’ve seen this government run deficits year after year. We have seen growth in the debt. We have a historic debt right now in this country — thanks, of course, in large part to successive budgets this government has passed.

Of course, as a former auditor yourself and a banker, you must be very concerned right now that, over the last couple of years, we’re spending significantly more to service the debt than we did a couple of years ago. As interest rates continue to climb, in large part because of inflationary policies — and as you have seen in this particular bill as well, you talk about stimulants. You talk about injection of funds which, in effect, are increasing taxes. You talked about a program where you’re taxing banks and insurance companies, and somehow the government makes it look like they are taxing the rich, but the truth of the matter is that will be passed on as well to Canadian consumers through higher insurance premiums, banking fees and so on and so forth.

Are you concerned that we are not doing enough to bring spending down, and to control the debt and deficit — and, as a result, as interest rates are growing, curb the interest we’re paying on the national debt?

Senator Loffreda: Senator Housakos, there is always a concern. If I take a look at the last financial statement — as you know, I love the numbers — our debt stands at $1.134 trillion as of March 31, 2022. The federal debt-to-GDP ratio was 45.5% — down from 47.5% in the previous year. As reported by the International Monetary Fund, or IMF, Canada’s total government net debt-to-GDP ratio, which includes the net debt of the federal, provincial, territorial and local governments, as well as the net assets held in the Canada Pension Plan and the Quebec Pension Plan, stood at 33.2% in 2021. This is the lowest among the group of G7 countries, which the IMF expects recorded an average net debt of 101.2% of GDP the same year.

Obviously, interest rates are increasing. Like I said, this bill brings in net revenues. But to return to the Canada growth fund, because that’s the more relevant question here in this bill — in our committee, there was worry, or concern, about the permanent structure not being in place; the $2 billion is for the purchase of non-voting shares. But in my experience with many technology companies, the largest challenge to an acquisition was the integration.

In this case, the Canada growth fund — and I would always ask the technology companies, “Why are you merging, or why are we acquiring the company? Why don’t we have a clean slate or a blank sheet?” Because technology evolves so quickly that the equipment is obsolete; the ideas are obsolete. So it’s important to have a clean slate, move it forward, come up with creative new ideas and get the proper CEO and proper board in place.

The Canada growth fund, in this situation, is the right decision. It’s going forward. The technical backgrounder says it all.

I’m comfortable that the $2 billion is a fine investment. It’s to keep up with our major trading partner, the U.S., and many countries around the world. I have the list here of all the countries that have invested around the world. We’re just investing a portion of that. If we look around the world, the European Union has invested €26.2 billion, the Netherlands has invested €13 billion, France has invested €7 billion and Australia has invested $10 billion.

So I think that $2 billion for the Canada growth fund for start‑up costs to put it together with a clean slate and technology is important because the infrastructure is obsolete. At times, it’s important to start with a clean slate, a clean sheet of paper and the results are much better.

Like I said, the financial statement is here. I could spend 10 minutes going through it. But what is important is that we are in a better financial position than other G7 countries. We rank at the top of the list in many aspects of many measures and metrics. Inflation is not the only metric to measure economic prosperity. Other measures do so, such as job growth and job creation. There are 1 million job vacancies in Canada, and there are 1 million people not working in Canada. It’s important to bring solutions in this chamber and to look at solutions.

I’m comfortable with the bill. Thank you for your question.