Senator Housakos: What else is new? This former director general also testified that when he left the CBSA, the price tag he costed for ArriveCAN was $6.3 million. He said he was shocked at the news that it had ballooned to over $54 million — another Canadian realizing Justin Trudeau is just not worth the cost.

Was that a result of putting Deloitte in the penalty box in favour of GC Strategies? Shouldn’t the person who made the decision be held accountable, Senator Gold? Don’t we believe in accountability? Who took this decision, and why aren’t you interested in holding that person to account?

Senator Housakos: Minister, we all know there have been huge overrun costs when it comes to managing this project. That’s number one. We do know, as parliamentarians, that in itself raises red flags.

We also know that when the RCMP opens an investigation, at bare minimum, there is a suspicion of wrongdoing.

Again, what steps have you taken, as a minister who has just gotten into the ministry, to make sure you get to the bottom of this before we wait for an RCMP report or an Auditor General’s report? What pre-emptive steps have you taken to look into this case and give us assurances that this will never reoccur?

Senator Housakos: Minister, Canadians, taxpayers and Parliament also deserve to know how much this will cost.

[Translation]

Despite the threats to Canada’s Arctic sovereignty, the Trudeau government doesn’t seem to have a plan to so much as start the polar icebreaker construction project. The year 2030 is quickly approaching and not only have the ships not been ordered, but your government still hasn’t signed a framework agreement with Davie for the construction of one of the two icebreakers.

Every year for the past three years, your government has promised to sign an agreement with Davie. However, every year, it hasn’t kept its promise. Minister, why haven’t you been able to sign an agreement, and what is the impact of this failure on the 2030 delivery date?

[English]

The senator referred to the Arctic where it’s critical that Canada has the tools and capabilities to protect our waters, borders and ecosystems in that area, and we’re making historic investments to do just that.

I recently had a chance to spend half of a day on an icebreaker — with the Canadian Coast Guard on the St. Lawrence River — that was keeping the seaway free of ice, and I want to commend the Canadian Coast Guard for the amazing job that they do on their rotations in the South in the winter. They will be heading up to the Arctic in a few months to do the icebreaking and protective services there.

Hon. Leo Housakos (Acting Leader of the Opposition): Minister, last month, your department provided a response to questions on the Senate Order Paper related to the procurement of two Polar-class icebreakers for the Canadian Coast Guard. One of the questions concerned the budget for this project. Your department refused to provide any estimate as to what this project would cost, despite the fact that the Parliamentary Budget Officer provided an estimate of more than $7 billion. The Trudeau government has said that the first ship will be in service in 2030 — seven years from now — yet you don’t even have a budget estimate that you can share with Parliament and the people of Canada.

Minister, you are either unwilling or unable to provide that number, and neither option is acceptable to Canadians. Do you have an estimate as to what that project will cost, and will you share it with us today?

Hon. Leo Housakos: Thank you, Senator Loffreda, for your speech. I listened quite attentively, and it sounded pretty dire when we’re talking about essentially giving aid to 11 million Canadians because of rising costs. It is indeed a dire situation, despite what the government leader said earlier in an answer to a question about how the economy is so wonderful and how the government has done an outstanding job.

The reality is that we are in a country where we have the second-largest land mass in the world — yet rents are off the charts. Housing affordability is off the charts. We have agricultural capacity that is among the best in the world, yet our food costs — milk, bread — are exponentially growing. We have a need for energy, of course, to produce food at a decent cost, and energy prices are off the charts because we’re keeping our energy in the ground thanks to legislation like Bill C-69 and Bill C-48.

My question to you is the following: Nobody discredits the fact that we need to act urgently to help Canadians who are suffering. But what happens in six months if Royal Bank of Canada, or RBC, for example, is right in their prediction of a recession being around the corner? What happens if the Governor of the Bank of Canada finally wakes up and says inflation is the biggest challenge facing Canadians? What is going to happen six months from now when we face these dire realities? Are we going to come back with more aid or will we turn to quantitative economics, which clearly this government needs a lesson in? I know you understand it well.

How do we address the problem at its core? Six months from now, would you be willing to go back to the well to give maybe 15 million Canadians more help?

Senator Loffreda: Thank you for your question, Senator Housakos. It’s always interesting to hear your perspective.

I’ve said from the beginning that agility is so important. This is agile, targeted and necessary at this point in time. What we’ve seen so far during this pandemic is that it’s very hard to forecast and predict what’s going to happen in six months or what’s going to happen in a year. We have a war in Ukraine. We have so many issues going on. You discussed inflation, and I think it’s a debate that needs to be had. Inflation is always caused by excess liquidity, scarce resources and expectations.

I want to say “kudos” to Loblaws, who announced today that they are freezing prices on No Name products until January. I say that because you’re asking what happens in six months if this is still the situation. If more Canadian companies were to take action like Loblaws and freeze prices and lower expectations for increasing prices, I think we would come to easier solutions to this crisis, and it would be quicker to resolve inflation.

I’m looking at a great paper here from Professor Trevor Tombe of the University of Calgary, who attended one of our committee meetings. He appeared at a meeting of the Senate Committee on Banking, Commerce and the Economy on September 29, 2022, and he confirmed that 75% of rising inflation is supply driven, 15% is demand driven and the rest is miscellaneous. He confirmed in his paper, which I read thoroughly a few times:

We find that a clear majority of Canada’s high inflation is due to a small handful of items: energy, food, and home-ownership costs.

The home ownership affordability crisis is a major issue, and we’re seeing that increasing interest rates will help with home affordability. If you look at the numbers lately, that will help. We hope more companies will do like Loblaws and freeze prices. Kudos to Loblaws; I think they deserve a hand. Hopefully, within six months, we’ll have a better economy.

Yes, RBC was the first to predict a recession. But I’ll tell you one thing — I said then and I’ll say it again — economists are always right: There will be a recession. I’ve had economists tell me that there’s going to be a recession. Two years later, they call me and say, “I told you so.” And I say, “Yeah, but you told me that two years ago.” So there will be a recession. When will it be? Your guess is as good as mine.

With the situation we’re in now, with the pandemic behind us but the war in Ukraine, the scarce supply and the scarce resources, I think we need to find solutions. Again, kudos to Loblaws, who own Maxi and Provigo in my cherished province of Quebec. More businesses should do like Loblaws. Let’s cut the expectations for inflation. Let’s create policies. Let’s find solutions for scarce resources. If we do all that within six months, we won’t need additional aid. I hope it will be the case that we, in this chamber, look for solutions. Thank you.

Hon. Leo Housakos: Honourable senators, my question is for the government leader in the Senate. Senator Gold, in a recent report to Parliament in response to a question from the opposition, your government misleadingly stated that the deeply flawed ArriveCAN app had cost taxpayers a total of approximately $29.5 million for developing, maintaining and promoting this app. What the report did not make clear is that the amount only covers the cost for the fiscal year that ended last March and that an additional $25 million has been approved for the current fiscal year by the CBSA — which expects to use that full amount — bringing the total closer to twice what the government reported in their parliamentary report.

Senator Gold, why does your government have such difficulty providing truthful and forthright responses to questions on behalf of hard-working Canadians who want to know where their money is going? I know that sometimes you are frustrated by the question, but is it simply that the government does not know how to count or that they deliberately fudge the numbers in order to give a false representation of the facts?

Senator Housakos: Government leader, your government’s inflationary deficits and tax increases are having an impact on the daily lives of ordinary Canadians. Last week, I raised the question right here in this chamber about the cost of food for families. The average cost is a $1,000-a-year increase for middle-class Canadian families to provide food on their tables, which we all agree is a necessity in this country.

We also learned today that housing prices are at a record high of 25% this year, yet the economic update yesterday only said the Trudeau government’s work on housing affordability is ongoing and that they will take action next year. So clearly, this is not a priority for the government.

How could the government look at Canadians with a straight face and say inflation is a priority when, in the financial statement and in the Speech from the Throne, we didn’t have any semblance that this government is willing to address spending and high taxes in this country and those two things are combining for an off-the-chart inflation rate?

Hon. Leo Housakos (Acting Leader of the Opposition): My supplementary question is again for the government leader. Government leader, a study released this morning shows that Canadians will pay $1,000 more for food next year. The cost of vegetables is expected to rise by 7% and dairy products by 8%. This is more money out of the pockets of Canadians already dealing with higher costs of housing and transportation. Canadians across this country are feeling the pinch, government leader. Meanwhile, with the agreement between the Government of Canada and the Bank of Canada on inflation targets set to expire at the end of this month, Bloomberg is reporting this morning — colleagues, listen to this — that the Trudeau government is thinking of changing the mandate to allow for a higher inflation target.

Senator Gold, if this report is actually accurate, do you really believe Canadians can afford to pay even more than they already pay for basic living needs? If you take the affordability crisis seriously, why won’t your government commit to maintaining the reasonable 2% inflation target?