Hon. Leo Housakos: Will Senator Cardozo take a question?

Senator Housakos: I will question him in private over a cup of coffee later.

Senator Housakos: Would Senator Cotter take a question?

Senator Housakos: Thank you, Senator Cotter. I want to highlight that in our Constitution — in black and white — when the forefathers created this chamber, it was created with the same rights, privileges and authority of the House of Commons — the Westminster system.

The second thing we have to keep in mind, colleagues, is that when this house was created, the “Father of Confederation,” John A. Macdonald, also made it clear that this place would be an independent body from the other place. It was also made clear that this body would speak for the voices that it was felt were not being adequately spoken for in the other place.

Prime minister after prime minister — I can give umpteen examples, including former Prime Minister Chrétien and even former Prime Minister Harper, who had a hard time swallowing the legitimacy of this institution — have always said that when an elected government does something that is found to be egregious by a large number of Canadians, that is when the Senate should legitimately step in to ensure that those voices are heard.

My question is the following: When I hear your speech, I’m very concerned. If the Senate has lost a great deal of legitimacy in the eyes of the public over the last couple of decades, it is because they asked the following question: Is this institution nothing more than a glorified debating society and echo chamber?

Hon. Leo Housakos: My question is for the government leader and it has to do with user-generated content and digital-first content providers. It’s nice to hear the minister say that digital users and content providers will not be part of this Bill C-11. It’s nice to hear the sponsor of the bill say it in this chamber. It’s great and reassuring to hear it in your speech. But the reality of the matter is the amendments that we sent over in good faith which made it clear that user-generated content would not be caught up in the web that’s being spun by this piece of legislation were rejected by the government.

My question is a very simple one: Why wouldn’t the government accept those amendments making it clear in the law — not a commitment on the part of government — that user-generated content will be excluded and carved out? Why did the government reject those amendments given the fact that we should take it at face value and accept that those amendments would put in the law the stated intent of what you just shared with us in your speech?

Senator Housakos: Government leader, you’re giving the impression to this chamber that there is somehow a tradition in this place at message point of legislation that we’re just a rubber stamp, and that’s not the case.

It’s in the Constitution that this chamber has a right and a responsibility at message stage to refuse a bill as well, which you did not highlight, and to send it back along with many other options that this chamber has. Yes, there has been a tradition to bow to the wishes of the elected chamber, but there is also something the forefathers had established when they created this chamber — that when a government does something so egregious that a large number of Canadians find it offensive, we have the right to exercise our constitutional authority. I just want to put that on the record as well, government leader.

Senator Housakos: With all due respect, government leader, this is a very important legislative process. We have an obligation to debate all aspects of the bill, even elements of the bill, government leader, that you don’t like to talk about.

I think you have an obligation in this chamber to answer all questions that directly and indirectly apply to this particular bill and the Broadcasting Act. These were all elements that were dealt with, not just amendments that were refused or rejected.

Furthermore, we have a capable Speaker in the chair, and I think it’s incumbent on that Speaker to do her job, and you can focus on doing yours.

I have one other question, government leader, since I haven’t had any answers to the questions thus far. The bill makes it clear. There are a number of sections that talk about amplifying minority groups in this country and diversity groups. That’s clear in the bill. It’s within the scope of the bill. That includes Indigenous Canadians.

Can you explain to me how we’re passing a bill, a broadcasting act, that’s so preoccupied with — and this government has their heart set on — supporting diversity, supporting Indigenous voices, yet when it comes to this year’s budget, you cut millions of dollars from the Indigenous Screen Office that would be going to Indigenous communities in order to amplify Indigenous voices?

Here is another example where you pass a law for posterity’s sake, yet in practical terms, in this current budget that you passed recently, you actually cut funding to the Indigenous Screen Office.

Senator Housakos: Senator Gold, I’ve been now in this place for 15 years, and excuse me if I am a little skeptical of taking any government at face value. I as a legislator would like to see things in the law in black and white.

You pointed out as well that we should just have faith that this is going to be done and that we are here to make sure that we overlook and carry out our responsibilities, as you said in your speech, as legislators to make sure the government does what they say. Don’t you also agree that we are passing a law here that has not been supported by a regulatory framework? We’re leaving it to the CRTC, as you said in your speech. They will be carrying out public consultations in order to set the regulatory framework. What happens in case this regulatory framework isn’t consistent with the commitments you highlighted in your speech? What are our options as parliamentarians at that point with this bill to do a follow-up in a thorough way?

Hon. Leo Housakos: Not to belabour the point, but user-generated content is definitely scoped into this bill. That was the opinion of the chairman of the CRTC when he testified before our committee. That was the opinion of the legal expert of Heritage Canada who, on numerous occasions, was asked directly about the language that Senator Cardozo referred to. It is clear that the government is refusing to tighten that language and accept reasonable amendments that state, in black and white in law, that user-generated content will be excluded. Nonetheless, I also want to correct a couple of things.

In his exchange with you, Senator Gold, Senator Cardozo highlighted really what the problem is between those who are fine with the bill and those who are against the bill. I know that the CRTC has the authority to make regulations because the law that we’re about to pass and the government wants to pass is giving that authority. In the old Broadcasting Act and the current Broadcasting Act, our colleague Senator Cardozo is right: The government and Canadian Heritage can not only influence the regulatory framework; they can give directives and overrule the CRTC. That’s precisely why when you have laws like the Broadcasting Act that leave this Parliament and become law, there have to be safeguards to make sure whoever is in government has parameters that they have to work within that we parliamentarians give them. And if we’re negligent in our responsibility in making laws that are clear, that’s when, of course, problems can occur.

Now, in terms of the regulatory framework, it is so customary on bills that are technical — like Bill C-11 — for governments to attach regulatory frameworks in advance. With Bill C-10, the precursor bill of Bill C-11, if you remember, at the final stages of that bill, under a lot of pressure from work in this chamber, the government came out with a framework at that particular point in time. It wasn’t a very good one, but they came up with a framework. It doesn’t require tossing it to the CRTC for two years.

But I don’t want to digress. I want to get to my follow-up question because there are a lot more problems with this bill than just user-generated content.

When we’re reforming the Broadcasting Act, one of the main pillars that needs to be reformed, which was not even looked at in this bill, is CanCon. My question to you, government leader, is the following: How could a story written by Margaret Atwood, The Handmaid’s Tale, with Canadian actors, filmed in Canada, with a Canadian director and so on and so forth — how could something like that, in the eyes of this current bill as we want to pass it, not qualify as Canadian content?

Senator Housakos: We tried to move amendments at committee dealing with Canadian content, and they were rejected. They were rejected and, by the same token, it’s part of the parliamentary process. Now, again, if you don’t want to answer the question, it speaks volumes, government leader, how the government is negligent in doing an in-depth dive on dealing with Canadian broadcasting.