- Member of Parliament
- Member of Parliament
- Bloc Québécois
- Trois-Rivières
- Quebec
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- May/6/24 11:30:40 a.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I will keep the public interest in mind while making my remarks rather than uttering sentences in the future tense about some potential future government.
No one can be against virtue. This is hardly a new idea. In fact, the greatest philosopher ever, Socrates, once said that “no one knowingly does evil”. Let us bear that in mind. This morning we are studying Motion No. 112, which deals with interference and violence. The motion is divided into three parts, which I will summarize to ensure that our arguments are placed in the proper context.
The first section moves that the House of Commons recognize that “Canada takes global security very seriously.” As we know, Canada is part of the Five Eyes. Canada is maybe the fifth and a half country, but it is nevertheless a member of the Five Eyes and, as such, it receives and provides information on the national security of member states. In recent years, questions can certainly be asked about the effectiveness of this, because it seems that when it comes to interference, we have not reacted in a very timely way. Nevertheless, there is a desire to see Canada take global security seriously.
The motion also discusses the killing of a Canadian citizen, Hardeep Singh Nijjar, in a place of worship on Canadian soil. This is an example of threats and interference by a country. India, Iran, Russia, China and many others are recognized for their practice of interfering in some way or another in the affairs of numerous states.
The motion goes on to say that “the government should immediately review its measures that hold to account any person or agents of a foreign state undermining democratic institutions, engaging in acts of violence, or violating human or international rights, in order to bar these persons from entering Canada, and report to the House”. No one is against virtue.
Reading Motion No. 112 made me smile a bit, I have to say. The motion—and it is a good motion—calls on the government to play the role it should have been playing. There should be no need for Motion No. 112 because these measures should already be in place. In concrete terms, Motion No. 112 talks about reviewing the measures Canada takes to hold to account foreign agents seeking to undermine democracy. No one can be against that.
When it comes to ignoring measures, the government is number one. We have only to think of the National Microbiology Laboratory in Winnipeg, the incidents involving Chinese interference, the incidents during the election that Justice Hogue commented on last week and the harassment of certain members of the diaspora. It seems to me that we should have started demanding accountability a long time ago. When we talk about accountability, we have to differentiate between matters of influence and matters of interference. Influence is leading someone to come on side of their own accord. Interference is meddling in someone’s affairs.
We know that, since 2015-16, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service warned the government on a few occasions that there were risks or information that had to be taken into account. We know that in November 2020, the House of Commons adopted a motion to create a foreign agent registry, but that has still not happened. Actually, last November, I proposed introducing a bill to create such a registry, which would have some teeth and a very broad scope, but so far we have not seen anything. It has not yet happened.
The interference issue, however, has been known for a long time. We could say that the government had a slightly naive view of China and was a bit complacent toward that country. Indeed, in all these years they have not done much, other than denying the bill or attempting to dodge the issue. This struck me in the case of the Winnipeg laboratory. Six hundred pages of the report were redacted, and now the equivalent of about 14 remain. That is certainly cause for concern.
The same goes for the federal election. They said that nothing happened, but they realized that something perhaps did happen in the case of the member for Don Valley North and the former Conservative member for Steveston—Richmond East.
In fact, it is interesting, because, although this report says there was interference, it also says there was no impact on the outcome of the election and that the same party would have come to power. However, it might not have been the same member sitting in the same place. It is important to realize that.
These types of missed opportunities include the 2023 Rosenberg report. There was an investigation into interference and the Trudeau Foundation. It is funny that just 23 out of the 23,000 words in the report referred to interference or to China. Here again, this looks like a missed opportunity or an attempt to dodge the issue.
In the case of the Trudeau Foundation, cheques were written in Mandarin, donations were reimbursed and the board of directors was a bungling mess; in short, this was a crisis. The Trudeau Foundation is not the government, let us be clear about that. However, there is a connection, and there is a need to rebuild trust. In a democracy, trust is key. Trust is the act of delegating one's future to someone else. That requires a relationship of trust. Otherwise it does not work.
Morris Rosenberg filed his report. I was rather dissatisfied with it. After that, we figured there would be an independent special rapporteur appointed. We recognized Mr. Johnston’s capabilities. However, we challenged his independence. We did not approve. He said that there was nothing there and that there were documents that could not be made public because they were classified as secret or top secret. Pressure was applied to help us get to the bottom of things. In short, Mr. Johnston resigned.
Then there was the Hogue commission, which promised transparency and did a thorough job. It recently tabled a report confirming foreign interference, with nuances, of course.
It was only once it had lost the people’s trust that the government agreed to take action. That is not reassuring. It does not build public trust in the government, since Canadians do not know whether our elections are working, if the nomination system is working, or if—getting back to my initial point—everything was done to protect national security.
Personally, I like Motion No. 112. However, I cannot say that the government was quick to take action. Rather, it tried to make us believe that the Prime Minister was doing something. Not doing anything is not exactly taking action.
With a foreign policy that, in my opinion, is vague at best, and perhaps even naive, we cannot manage these incidents piecemeal. We need a coherent vision to be able to provide a coherent response. For now, we appear to respond only when we are forced to do so, on a case-by-case basis. I believe we need to think about the rogue states around us, because there is an increasing number of them, and see what we can do.
Since it would be hard to be against virtue, the Bloc Québécois will support motion Motion No. 112, despite the fact that it is a timid measure at best.
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- May/8/23 8:09:37 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague, with whom I have the privilege of serving on the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. I have always admired his sense of public interest and his perspective on our debates, which is very helpful.
All the examples he just gave, such as the police stations and the Trudeau Foundation, and everything he said in his speech, show that democracy is under attack.
In his opinion, how did we get here? How did we get to the point that we have to vote on such an issue?
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- May/4/23 4:13:35 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, my heart goes out to the member for Wellington—Halton Hills.
I would like to ask him this. The government's blunders are piling up. Just consider the Trudeau Foundation, the appointment of an independent rapporteur who is not independent, or the failure to notify the member in a case like this or to formally crack down on foreign interference.
Is this not the very essence of what it means to undermine public trust in the government?
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- May/2/23 2:40:12 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, in the meantime, CSIS is warning that Beijing sees Canada as a high-priority target for interference.
Obviously, it is easy for China. China could get close to the Prime Minister through the Trudeau Foundation. China could get close to the Liberals at their own $1,500-a-head cocktail parties during their first term. Then, when China gets caught by CSIS doing things like threatening the family of an elected member, the Liberals keep it a secret.
Do the Liberals realize that it is their fault that China is infiltrating our institutions with disturbing ease?
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- May/1/23 2:43:24 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, let us recap. The Trudeau Foundation accepted a donation from China in 2016. China dictated the terms of the donation to the foundation. The CEO of the foundation later told the media that the donation came from a Canadian company. Years later, the foundation's new CEO wanted to investigate that donation and was persecuted for it.
When Chinese interference started making headlines, the Liberals chose two former foundation members, Mr. Rosenberg and Mr. Johnston, to investigate. What a farce.
When will there be a real independent public inquiry, one that does not involve any members of the Trudeau Foundation, for goodness' sake?
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- May/1/23 2:42:05 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, when Ms. Fournier realized that this donation was linked to Beijing, she demanded two things: first, that an investigation be conducted, and second, that members of the foundation's board at the time recuse themselves from the investigation. The foundation refused to comply with either of those demands, and no light was shed on this.
Nevertheless, it was from the Trudeau Foundation that the Liberals recruited their experts, who are supposed to investigate any electoral interference, by China in particular. The Liberals can no longer claim that the truth will be made known without an independent commission of public inquiry.
When will they launch such a commission?
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- May/1/23 2:40:46 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, Pascale Fournier, former CEO of the Trudeau Foundation, appeared at committee, and her revelations were troubling. She testified that under her predecessor, Morris Rosenberg, an association with ties to Beijing dictated the terms for transferring the controversial $140,000 donation to the foundation. It was Beijing that dictated those terms and that got Mr. Rosenberg to address the receipt to a location in China and not include the donors' names.
However, that same Mr. Rosenberg was then appointed by the Liberals to investigate Chinese foreign interference. He concluded that there was no interference.
Should we blindly believe him?
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- May/1/23 2:39:53 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, the end is drawing near. Pascale Fournier, former CEO of the Trudeau Foundation, appeared at committee, and her revelations were troubling. She testified that under her predecessor, Morris Rosenberg, an association with ties to Beijing dictated the terms for transferring the controversial $140,000 donation to the foundation. It was Beijing that dictated those terms and that got Mr. Rosenberg to address the receipt to a location in China and not include—
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- Apr/28/23 11:40:28 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, Ottawa must clamp down.
This was the warning given last week by Raphaël Glucksmann, chair of the special committee on foreign interference in Europe, who stated that what made it possible for these repeated attacks to take place was first and foremost the absence of sanctions, adding that there were no sanctions in the European Union.
That is why the Bloc Québécois is calling for three things: first, an independent public inquiry; second, an independent and permanent investigative body; and, third, a criminal law on foreign interference to equip police services. No one will settle for an already-discredited report by the Trudeau Foundation.
When will the Prime Minister realize that?
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- Apr/28/23 11:39:35 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, at this point, the ties between the Prime Minister and the Trudeau Foundation are clear. His family, his friends and his staff are involved, as we heard in committee this morning.
The ties between the Chinese government and the foundation are also clear after a $140,000 donation was made. The Trudeau Foundation is a collection of Liberal Party friends, and that is why it is of interest to China. All Quebeckers understand this.
One question remains: Who can trust anyone from the foundation to investigate Beijing's attempts to get close to Liberal circles?
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- Apr/25/23 2:43:14 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, we are not about to be lectured on independence.
The connection between the Liberals and the Trudeau Foundation is so obvious that even its alumni are now embarrassed to be associated with it.
It is obvious, given that we know that the foundation was invited to a meeting at the Prime Minister's building. It is obvious, given that we know that the PMO asks about the donations the foundation receives.
It was through this foundation that the Prime Minister found his rapporteur on Chinese interference. Everyone knows that it will be impossible to get to the bottom of this interference when someone from the foundation that itself benefited from said interference is in charge of the investigation. Everyone knows that but the Liberals.
What do they not understand?
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- Apr/25/23 2:41:54 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, to paraphrase what Isabelle Hachey said in La Presse this morning, the Trudeau Foundation is a catalogue of friends of the Liberal Party of Canada.
This catalogue is not subject to the legislation governing political party financing. What a great way for a foreign power to contribute to this catalogue of friends of the Liberal Party, when the Liberal Party is in power. That is exactly what China did.
Why does this government refuse to recognize that the only reason the Chinese authorities would donate to the Trudeau Foundation is to curry favour with the Prime Minister?
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- Apr/24/23 2:39:32 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, three years after the PM supposedly cut ties with the Trudeau Foundation, we learn that said foundation is holding a meeting at the Prime Minister's Office, directly in the Langevin Block, with five deputy ministers.
How many charitable organizations hold meetings at the Langevin Block with deputy ministers? None. Let us recap. The Prime Minister's Office calls the foundation about the donation from China. The Prime Minister's Office invites the foundation to the Langevin Block.
How are we to believe that the Prime Minister cut ties with the foundation 10 years ago when there are still ties between his office and the foundation?
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- Apr/21/23 11:40:59 a.m.
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Mr. Speaker, the vacant Ethics Commissioner position is problematic. No investigations can be conducted until the position is filled.
However, the House is currently looking into the Chinese interference scandal, which could require clarifications about the role played by Liberal actors. The Prime Minister himself is embroiled in a scandal concerning his Christmas vacation with friends who make donations to the Trudeau Foundation. If the Liberals were to leave the interim Ethics Commissioner position empty much longer, questions would be raised.
Will the Liberals provide the opposition with a list of candidates on Monday?
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- Apr/20/23 2:38:23 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, it would be impossible for anyone looking at this situation not to wonder. We are in the midst of a crisis over Chinese interference. On one side, we have a Prime Minister who is still intimately associated with the Trudeau Foundation. On the other side, we have China, which has paid a lot of money to get as close as possible to the Trudeau Foundation. In the middle, we have an arbitrator, the special rapporteur chosen by the Prime Minister, who is a friend of the Prime Minister and a member of the foundation. One has to wonder.
How can the government hope to restore trust without an independent public commission of inquiry?
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- Apr/20/23 2:37:13 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has told us that he has not had any ties to the Trudeau Foundation for ten years. Let us assume that is the case. However, one year after he became Prime Minister, China thought it was a good idea to make a $140,000 donation in honour of his father. We know that nothing is free in this world.
What did China have to gain by making a donation to a foundation that hands out scholarships to Canadians? Did it want to help students or act out of altruism? Excuse me if I laugh. Could it be that it wanted to get close to Pierre Elliott Trudeau's son, who had just been elected Prime Minister?
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- Apr/18/23 2:40:34 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, that was quick.
There is reality and there is the perception of reality. The Trudeau Foundation received money from Chinese donors, that is reality. The Prime Minister went on vacation to visit one of the Trudeau Foundation's major donors, that is reality. Morris Rosenberg, who was commissioned by the Prime Minister to assess foreign interference in elections, was CEO of the Trudeau Foundation, that is reality. David Johnston, the special rapporteur on Chinese interference appointed by the Prime Minister, is a member of the Trudeau Foundation, that is reality.
We cannot help but think that the Chinese government is using the Trudeau Foundation to influence the Prime Minister, and it is working.
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- Apr/18/23 2:39:44 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, the CBC—the Liberal propaganda arm, according to the Conservative Party—reports that the Prime Minister spent his Christmas holiday with friends who made significant donations to the Trudeau Foundation. These are childhood friends, one of whom is Pierre Elliott Trudeau's godson. These people are major donors to a foundation embroiled in allegations of suspicious donations linked to the Chinese government. Those are the people the Prime Minister chose to vacation with.
On top of his lack of judgment and lack of ethics, how can the Prime Minister continue to claim that he has no ties to the Trudeau Foundation?
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