44th Parl. 1st Sess.
May 8, 2023 11:00AM
- May/8/23 2:59:13 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, at their convention, the Liberals came up with a solution to the Chinese interference issue: stop the media from reporting on it. This was literally one of the resolutions that the Liberals passed last weekend.
As they see it, the problem is not that China helped or threatened members and their families; the problem is that the media talks about it. It is disgraceful.
To slough off the burden of dealing with Chinese interference, the Liberals have proposed a solution worthy of the Chinese Communist party.
Can they assure that House that any consideration of this solution is out of the question?
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- May/8/23 3:00:19 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, that is not what the resolution said.
Last week, the Prime Minister blamed CSIS for failing to inform the member for Wellington—Halton Hills that he was the target of threats from China. That is false. CSIS warned the Prime Minister's Office as early as 2021. The top security adviser to the Prime Minister confirmed this to the member. Why is this important? It is important because, once again, when it comes to Chinese interference, the Prime Minister is telling the opposite of the truth. What he has been saying since day one flies in the face of the truth. He has no credibility to get to the bottom of this.
When will there be an independent public inquiry?
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- May/8/23 4:07:57 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, we are at the point where we have to request a special decision from the House to recognize that a sitting member of the House has been intimidated. That is something. We are talking about a direct attack on democracy. That is where we are.
When did this start? The friends I meet on the street in Trois-Rivières on the weekend often tell me that we have been talking about this for weeks. It has not been weeks. The Liberal government has been totally oblivious to what is going on in foreign affairs since 2015.
The government is not particularly interested in foreign affairs, and has no clear idea of the direction it should take. The government has had four ministers of foreign affairs in seven or eight years, which is not a sign of strong diplomacy, as diplomacy requires continuity. One of my colleagues is telling me that there have been five. Five ministers in seven years is not continuity. It suggests that the government is not concerned about diplomacy. What is diplomacy? It is a form of dialogue between nations intended to ensure peace.
Right now, there is no dialogue between Canada and China. China tells us what to do and we do it. That is unacceptable. The Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics, of which I am a member, has been working on the issue of Chinese interference for months now.
It does not stop there. Universities, research centres and the business community often fear that if they look too closely into interference they will lose funding or market shares. Losing our democracy is worse than that, however. This makes no sense. A line has been crossed that I did not even think it possible to approach in the House.
Let us talk about academia. In 2017, the French government conducted a survey that showed that the Chinese regime was courting former politicians to obtain information and derive benefits. That is called elite capture. They can be former politicians who are now sitting on boards of directors, or former faculty deans who hold other chairs in China or who receive various research grants. That is elite capture, and it is a phenomenon that we do not talk about here.
We are hearing a lot of talk these days about the Volkswagen factory that will be opening in Ontario. That company also has a factory in China. Does anyone think that Volkswagen really owns that factory? Volkswagen does whatever the Chinese government tells it to do. The company cannot pull out of China, and it does not control the prices of its cars.
The Chinese regime is philosophically and ideologically diametrically opposed to what we stand for here. It does not recognize the value of democracy and would prefer to do without it.
China has always tried to sow chaos among its trade partners. What is chaos? Obviously, it is when things go off in different directions, but let us look at what has been going on in the House over the past three months or so. Every day during question period, we ask the government whether it is going to do something about what we are seeing and whether it will continue to justify the unjustifiable for much longer. It is chaos here. Meanwhile, Beijing is jumping for joy.
The same cannot be said of our government. This is terrible. The Chinese regime is bent on destroying all other social systems. We are not on the same page.
I think that the government would be better off learning to play Go rather than trying to play Risk because, right now, it is not working. We need to think in terms of generations.
I will give an example. Around 2013, when Xi Jinping came to power, I was in Paris with the then ambassador of China. One of my colleagues asked the ambassador why the President of China is appointed rather than elected in free and fair elections like in this country. The ambassador carefully explained that, in China, all the children are screened at a very young age, and the ones with potential are singled out to be educated in the best schools, evaluated again and sent to study abroad. Eventually, based on the challenges of the day, the best person is chosen to achieve a given goal. It was very difficult for me to hear, but he told me that what we do basically amounts to a beauty contest. We were approaching 2015 at the time. I could not really argue with him. While we hold beauty contests, people make sure they have the means to achieve their ends.
I think that we are being taught an important lesson in foreign affairs as a result of our lack of interest in recent years, and it hurts.
Today's expulsion of the Chinese diplomat sends the message that we are not the only ones who will be facing consequences. The Chinese government will also have to face certain consequences.
There was an obvious lack of courage in everything leading up to that decision, which was the right decision. It was about time, but the government made the decision with a gun to its head. The government did not really make a decision, it simply no longer had any choice. Its credibility with its partners was at stake. However, this decision sends the message that we are prepared to face the consequences of our choice, because yours was unacceptable.
I do not think we should tolerate the intolerable. We need to stand up, appreciate the value of our system and our democracy and protect it.
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- May/8/23 4:15:06 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague. I am pleased to be working with him on the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.
Yes, the machine is broken. It cannot see beyond its immediate surroundings. The machine is stuck and cannot think beyond its narrow confines. What happens outside its immediate surroundings does not appear to be taken into consideration.
The issue here is trust. Trust is a very fragile thing. It is the ability to rely on something without having to examine it closely. Today we have to examine everything. We cannot close our eyes for an instant and think that things will be done properly.
The opposite of trust, what happens when trust is broken, is distrust. What does distrust lead to? It leads to defiance, which itself often leads to revolt, revolution or, at least, some undesirable action. I think that everything we do today must be aimed at restoring trust in the government, the machinery of government and the House of Commons, because with broken trust, all we will have is distrust and defiance.
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- May/8/23 4:17:29 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, it is essential that we stand together.
Solidarity is an interesting word. It comes from the word “solid”, so it has to be strong. Solidarity means standing united to achieve a common goal. I think that we need to determine what this common goal is, what protecting democracy means. When one person is targeted, everyone is targeted.
Last week, a shiver went down my spine when I read the word “MPs” in The Globe and Mail. That cannot be tolerated. I think that the initial reaction reported here, that of not believing the victim, at the time the member for Wellington—Halton Hills, is not only hurtful, but an assassination of his character.
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- May/8/23 4:18:55 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, we are certainly seeing a fundamental shift when it comes to foreign interference. China, Russia, Iran and the United Arab Emirates are involved. A number of countries today have new tools that they are using for nefarious purposes.
However, today's debate is about China. We have reason to believe that it has a slightly different strategy. Russia tends to carry out brutal attacks, but China thinks in terms of generations. China has had a presence in Canada for some time. The Chinese police stations have been operating for some time. They did not just materialize overnight.
I think we need to start trying to understand. Experts on China tell us that it is a bit like erosion. Say I see a river when I am young. Fifteen years later, it will have eroded, yet I walked by it every day and did not see the erosion happening. Erosion is a silent transformation.
Right now we are seeing the result of the silent transformation that we failed to see, failed to monitor or did not want to see, as the case may be. There has been a transformation, and we need to acknowledge it. The global landscape has changed.
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- May/8/23 4:21:01 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague from Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques and congratulate him for his work on French-language science.
Raphaël Glucksmann, chair of the Special Committee on Foreign Interference in all Democratic Processes in the European Union, appeared before the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics the other day and told us that the special committee held 300 meetings on foreign interference, that it put forward numerous options, and that it did nothing. He warned us not to make the same mistake.
I think that it is important to take note of this, to start working in the House and in committee and to do something, because doing nothing is not an option.
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- May/8/23 4:25:37 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I was not in the House when the altercation occurred, and it is difficult for me to comment on something that I did not witness. However, we voted on the motion today and it was a favourable vote.
This has not been a great day for democracy. It is terrible that we had to vote on that and that the vote was not unanimous.
I think this situation is deplorable, whatever the arguments were.
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- May/8/23 8:09:37 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague, with whom I have the privilege of serving on the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. I have always admired his sense of public interest and his perspective on our debates, which is very helpful.
All the examples he just gave, such as the police stations and the Trudeau Foundation, and everything he said in his speech, show that democracy is under attack.
In his opinion, how did we get here? How did we get to the point that we have to vote on such an issue?
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- May/8/23 8:41:40 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for her very enlightening speech. I am listening to my colleagues discuss this matter, and I am wondering what explanation there could be for the government's weakness or laziness in responding to such events.
Can my colleague explain that?
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- May/8/23 9:12:36 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I want to thank my colleague from Laurentides—Labelle for painting such a clear picture of the doubts that unfortunately prevail in the House. As she indicated, the government has certainly taken its sweet time on this.
We were told that Ottawa could not act quickly because of the potential consequences. Obviously, every action has consequences. They are actually part of the action itself. It seems to me that any government must be prepared to accept the consequences of its action or inaction in terms of protecting democracy. I would like to know what the government will have to do when it gets to that point. It has appointed a so-called independent rapporteur, so at least it has begun to take action.
What can the government do to really remove all doubt?
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- May/8/23 9:40:10 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his speech, which was enlightening, as usual.
I have been watching this situation unfold for weeks, even months, and I wonder: Is this an error, a mistake or negligence on the part of the government?
I will be precise here. An error comes from the verb “to err”. That is when someone loses their way. A mistake is when someone does something wrong. Negligence is when someone knowingly does something wrong.
I ask my colleague, was it an error, a mistake or negligence that allowed the situation to deteriorate like this?
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- May/8/23 10:59:38 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I want to ask my colleague a question, and I would really like to hear his personal opinion. The foreign agent registry he referred to a short time ago has been implemented in Australia. At the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics, we heard testimony that this registry was not working, that there were flaws in it and that the objectives in question had not been achieved.
I wonder if my colleague could comment on what he might suggest to ensure that such a registry achieves the objectives that are set.
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