44th Parl. 1st Sess.
May 8, 2023 11:00AM
- May/8/23 2:14:02 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, George Whitney was a dedicated civil servant, a committed conservationist and one of the most interesting, most curious and most entertaining people I have ever met. Among his many roles, George was the superintendent of Algonquin Provincial Park and the director of fisheries for the Government of Ontario.
His last position was with the Canadian International Development Agency in Zimbabwe and it was in Zimbabwe that George and I met for the first time. People may have wondered how our friendship developed. He was 30 years my senior and we had very different lives. Sometimes the world is a funny place and I like to believe that George saw in me a kindred spirit, someone who was interested in our world, interested in wild places, interested in creating a world that was more equal for all.
George, his highly entertaining brother Paul, our dear friend Scott and I would spend many a night talking about our global exploits, arguing about what made the perfect dog, which is, of course, the Rhodesian ridgeback, and scheming about how we would fix the world.
The world is a less interesting place without him in it.
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- May/8/23 2:50:24 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, more than 30,000 Albertans have been forced from their homes because of wildfires, and there is a serious lack of information about where they can get help and when.
In the absence of provincial leadership, can the Minister of Emergency Preparedness reassure the thousands of Albertans, particularly indigenous and Métis communities that have been affected by wildfires, that the federal government will be there to help with the recovery and rebuilding for as long as necessary?
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- May/8/23 3:56:37 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, this is, of course, a very serious issue that I am glad to see the government has finally acted on. However, my concern is that it took weeks of pressure from multiple parties. It took weeks of the member for Wellington—Halton Hills asking for action from the government, yet we did not see this diplomat expelled until just now.
I am wondering if the member for Wellington—Halton Hills could talk about a concern that I have, which is how we would know if there were more diplomats. How do we have the transparency and the confidence that this has not been happening with other diplomats or happening in other circumstances to other members and other people within the House?
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- May/8/23 4:43:06 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, my colleague always speaks so eloquently, and I learn so much from his interventions.
One of the things he talked about was the fact that the interference in our elections and the interference in our political system are not just happening from one country or another. I think that it is very important, when we stand in this House, to be very cautious and very careful with our language. With this particular example, we are seeing a diplomat from the government of China, but we also know that we have had people from the terrorist regime in Iran. We know that Russia has tried to influence Canada. In fact, during the convoy, we knew there was foreign influence coming from the United States.
Could the member speak a bit more about how Canada could do more to protect itself, not just from risks from the PRC but also from other countries around the world that we know are interfering with our political system?
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- May/8/23 5:31:19 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I joined my colleague on the trip he mentioned to Taiwan. I believe it was the Doublethink Lab he was referring to when he was speaking about civil society and the role it played in dealing with misinformation and cyber-attacks in Taiwan.
When we were in Taiwan, we could see that there was a very all-of-government and all-of-society approach to dealing with misinformation and interference. Could the member comment on how that could happen here? It feels to me, perhaps because of the inaction of the government, like we are now in a position where this has become politically fraught. How do we do something that is good for our democracy? How do we work together across all parties to strengthen our democracy and strengthen protections for our vital institutions in an environment that has become so divided, so partisan and so political in scope?
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- May/8/23 6:03:46 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I have some concerns about how we are going forward with this discussion and how we are building a stronger democracy in Canada. I know the member to be very thoughtful.
Can the member speak about the circumstances where we have to keep things private?
Regarding national security, we know not everything can be public. I am struggling right now. I am sure many people in this House are struggling with knowing where that line is and how we protect that very important public security line, but also have the ability to be transparent and also have the ability to ensure that parliamentarians know when they are at risk and when their families are at risk.
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- May/8/23 10:10:26 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I am sorry, but this is difficult for me, so I will speak in English tonight.
My struggle tonight is that I am trying to figure out that balance between holding the government accountable and finding a solution so that our democracy is protected going forward. One of the things I am very concerned about is that the Conservatives are very partisan on this issue, and I do not see a way forward when they keep this very partisan. I understand why that is the case. Like the member who just spoke, I have high regard for the member for Wellington—Halton Hills. I think everyone in this place should, but I look at the Conservative Party, and I recognize that in 2014, under Stephen Harper, they put some very secretive trade deals in place with the Government of China, trade deals that implicated Canada for 31 years.
I am wondering what pieces were in place when Stephen Harper and the Conservatives were in power that actually protected our democracy, because I know of some examples where the Conservatives, in fact, gave away our sovereignty and our rights to the Chinese government. Granted, I understand it is a different Chinese government than what we are seeing now, but they locked us in for 31 years. I am wondering how the member can stand there, and perhaps he can tell me exactly what pieces were in play so that our democracy was protected under Stephen Harper and the Conservatives.
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- May/8/23 10:16:45 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I want to start tonight by saying that I hope my colleagues will indulge me in taking a moment to send all of my best wishes to Alberta right now. There are 30,000 Albertans who have been displaced by the wildfires affecting our communities. We know that there are a number of indigenous and Métis communities that are particularly hard hit. We also know that the firefighters have stepped up to do some of the most dangerous work possible to protect Albertans. I just want to make sure that I express my deep, heartfelt thanks to them and send my prayers that the communities stay safe. My husband was kind enough to let me know that it has started to rain in Alberta, so fingers crossed that the rain continues and that communities stay safe.
I missed part of today's debate because I had to step away. It was not because I do not think this debate is very important. It is probably one of the most important debates that we can have in this place. It is rather that I am a member and vice-chair of the Canada-China committee and we had a committee meeting this evening, so I am coming from a committee meeting where we looked at Chinese investment funds and how they are investing in China, how they are investing in Chinese companies. We have some deep concerns about some of those companies: whether they are implicated in forced labour, environmental degradation or, perhaps, harms to indigenous peoples and human rights abuses.
I am coming to the debate tonight with that lens, with the idea that this is all part of a bigger conversation that as parliamentarians I think we need to have, but also as parliamentarians, perhaps, that we have left too long. The world is changing. How the world works is changing. We saw that on February 24, when Russia invaded Ukraine. We saw that there is a change in the way our world works. I feel that this place has not kept up as well as it should.
That brings me to one of my important points on tonight's debate, which is that what we are talking about tonight is Chinese interference in our elections, the Chinese government interfering in our democratic institutions and interfering with members of our House of Commons. However, for me it is vitally important, and I will probably repeat this a number of times tonight, to remember that this is not just about the Chinese government interfering in our electoral system, in our democratic institutions and in our country. It is about many different countries interfering. It is about foreign interference from many bad actors.
I think we can all agree, with what we are seeing out of Russia with Putin and the Russian Federation, that there is a very clear attempt to use disinformation, to use social media channels and to use the convoy in order to change the conversation, to change the way Canadians see our democratic institutions. We can see some of the things that have come even from the Russian social media. There are official channels that are very disruptive, which I think we need to be aware of and keep in mind as politicians.
We are seeing the influence of Iran. We do have a terrorist regime in Iran that is influencing Iranian Canadians and putting them in terrible situations. We do have that situation, and we have examples of foreign interference from the Government of India.
I know that the United States is one of our closest allies, an ally that every Canadian cherishes. However, I have to say that to ignore the fact that there is interference in our democratic institutions from the United States is a mistake. Honestly, I was looking at some of the numbers related to the funding for the convoy, which was so disruptive for our democracy and so disruptive for our country in the winter of 2022. There was a funder who was in charge of cryptocurrency. He was another cryptocurrency king. He gave $17,760 to the convoy. He was an American. His goal was to impact our electoral system, to impact our democracy.
I want everybody here to be very clear that what we are talking about tonight is not just the impact that China and the Chinese government have had on our democratic institutions. It is very important that we keep in mind that we need to up our game. We need to be much stronger and much better on foreign interference from a number of different places.
That said, I also want to say how sorry I am that this has happened to the member for Wellington—Halton Hills. It is a testament to what an incredible member of Parliament he is that members from every party have stood in this place and spoken about his integrity, his knowledge and his skills as a parliamentarian. It is in fact that skill, that integrity and that voice he has a parliamentarian that put a target on his back. It is his raising issues on the protection of our democratic institutions that has put a target on him. It is because he is such a strong parliamentarian that he is now the target of the PRC.
For us, that is particularly damaging and dangerous, because it basically says that if a member is really good at their job, they are more at risk of being a target. That is not what Canadians want from their parliamentarians. We do not want weak parliamentarians so that they do not become a target of the PRC. That is a terrible thing to institute.
I was a member of the international human rights subcommittee that was, two years ago, banned from China. We were told we would be sanctioned and that if we had any assets in China, they would be seized. This is because the subcommittee had done a study on the genocide of the Uyghur people. We brought people in, heard testimony and produced a report making it very clear that what was happening to the Uyghur people in Xinjiang constituted a genocide. That report came to the House of Commons, where there was a unanimous vote and the Parliament of Canada agreed that this constituted a genocide.
I look at that and think what we have now is the use of threats, the use of misinformation and the use of intimidation to stop our democratic processes. I do not want to go to a meeting on a Friday of the international human rights subcommittee and worry that we cannot make decisions we need to make because some government may interfere with our democratic processes. I do not want that to happen. We need to do everything we can as parliamentarians to protect that.
When I sit on the Canada-China committee, I do not want to think that I have to be careful with what I say about how our pension plans are invested around the world. I want to be able to ask the questions I need to ask so I can get the information I need in order to make the decisions that I need to make as a parliamentarian. That is at risk if we are not cautious with how we move forward on this.
As horrendous as this must be for the member for Wellington—Halton Hills and for many other members, it is also important to note that the House leader for the New Democratic Party today stood up in question period and asked if all members who had been the target of foreign interference by the Chinese government had been notified. We did not receive an answer from the government. The government did not provide us with an answer. I do not know about the rest of members, but when I do not get an answer, I assume the worst. I assume the reason we are not getting a clear answer is that the answer is not something we would want to hear or the government would want to tell us. We already have a situation where we do not even know how many other members of Parliament may be impacted, and that is terrible, because we are the legislators. We are the people who have been entrusted to hold the government to account.
What else is terrible is that this is not just happening to members of Parliament. This is not just happening to those of us in this place who make laws. This is happening to Chinese Canadians across this country. It is happening to Iranian Canadians. It is happening to Ukrainian Canadians. It is happening to members of other levels of government. That, for me, is the piece that says we really have to do something to protect the safety of Canadians.
This is not new. We are in this place and are seized with this issue right now. Those are the vagaries of how this place works. Things come and go and whatnot. However, we have heard from witnesses who have testified at committee about being intimidated and suffering at the hands of the Chinese government for decades. We have been told that this has been happening for over 30 years in this country. It is really important that we consider that and think about the fact that, yes, absolutely this is coming to a head right now and is something we need to deal with. However, if there were ever a time to recognize that we have let this go too long, that we have not taken this threat seriously and that we have not looked around the world and recognized how vulnerable and precious our democracy is and how important it is that we fight to maintain the safety of Canadians and our institutions, it is now. The fact is that they have been calling for us to pay attention for 30 years. That is a lot of Liberal governments and a lot of Conservative governments, and we have not seen a lot of solutions.
There is another thing that I want to raise for members' attention. We have been talking about foreign interference, and today I think we were all pleased to know that the diplomat who was responsible was listed as a persona non grata, albeit it was very slow. However, I looked into something that a colleague of mine mentioned earlier in the debate, that is, how many diplomats from China are here in Canada right now. We have 176, from what I can count. I could be wrong, because of course when we start counting sometimes we make mistakes, but we have 176 in Canada right now.
I do not know that we have a good sense of what those diplomats and those staff people are doing in this country. However, one thing I found was even more shocking: We have 81 Russian people in this country right now. We only have 25 people from Ukraine. We are the country that has the most Ukrainians in it outside of Ukraine and Russia, yet we only have 25 people from Ukraine who are part of the diplomatic staff and diplomatic corps, and have 81 people from Russia. I am concerned about how we justify this. What is the rationale for it? What is the thought process behind it?
I struggle when I stand in here because I know that national security is not something we can take lightly; it is not something we can underestimate. It is also not something that necessarily can always be brought up in public in the House of Commons.
In our committees, we have in camera meetings. We understand that some things are not for public consumption. I have never been a member of the government, but I can assume that there are certain things we need to keep secret and that we need to keep private. We have NSICOP for that purpose, and this is how we manage the balance between making sure we are keeping Canadians, members of Parliament and our democratic institutions safe while ensuring that we are protecting things that cannot be made public. I think most Canadians understand that. However, I think most Canadians will say that the balance is very skewed at the moment, when we have a member of Parliament who has been at risk for two years and was not told and when we have a member of Parliament whose family was threatened. I think most Canadians will recognize that the scale is now very skewed.
I also think we can all agree that the government has mishandled this particular situation. It has dragged its feet. It has acted only when forced to do so. However, I asked a question earlier of a member from the Conservative Party, and I am not certain that I got an answer that explains what the Conservative Party would have done differently, how the Conservatives acted differently before they were elected and how they were ensuring that our democratic institutions were protected any better. Absolutely the government needs to do more, but I am looking at a 2014 agreement that set Canada up for 31 or 34 years of secret, backroom deals and of things that we do not even have the ability to get information about. Yes, I am concerned about what the Liberals are doing, but I am not 100% sure I believe the Conservatives would have fixed the problem.
Knowing I will run out of time at some point, I do have some suggestions, because that is what we should be talking about tonight as well. What is the solution? What do we do now that we know our fragile democratic institutions are at risk? We all want to protect them, and I have to believe all of us want that. We have a situation where things have not been done properly. How do we make sure going forward that things are done properly?
There are some very clear things we can do. We need the government to put in place stronger measures to identify foreign influence by introducing new reporting and transparency mechanisms. There has to be a better system so those mechanisms do not fail again. We need to make sure those are updated.
We need a public inquiry. There needs to be a public inquiry into foreign interference. We have called for this. That is because at this point, that level of trust is broken. Believe me, I do not think our elections do not have the right results or anything like that. The results that came from our elections are fair and Canadians can be confident of that. However, what I want is for Canadians to be confident going forward. I want Canadians to be confident in the next election, and a public inquiry is the only way that is possible.
Obviously, the government must shut down the police stations targeting Canadians. I think every Canadian recognizes that they are not something we want on our soil. It is not something that should be happening. I am disappointed to hear things like we are “seized” with it, we are “concerned” about it or there are “thoughts” about stopping it. This is not strong enough. Those need to be shut down, and any of the diplomats who are illegally acting within these police stations need to be expelled.
That brings me to the next thing. When we know that diplomats are spying on Canadians, intimidating Canadians or misusing their position, a position in which they have more rights than the Speaker and I have, they need to be expelled. To me, it makes sense that we expel anyone who is threatening Canadians. That is another thing we can do.
As New Democrats, our focus going forward is going to be on how we make sure we are protecting our institutions. What mechanisms do we need to put in place to make sure that what is happening and what has happened do not happen again? Let us make sure Canadians can feel confident that their government is protecting their safety and protecting the democratic institutions that all Canadians should be very proud of.
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Mr. Speaker, listen, if I had my way, there would be no dinners that are pay to play. There should be no $1,000-a-plate dinners. However, come on. Let us not pretend that the Conservatives do not do the same thing. Let us not pretend there is not fundraising being done on the backs of bills like Bill C-11, and that there is no politicization of them. That is not accurate.
In terms of making sure the government acts seriously, I have to say that I agree with the member on that. It feels to me like the government has had to be dragged to do the right thing, kicking and screaming. We brought the Minister of Foreign Affairs to the foreign affairs committee, and basically she had to be dragged kicking and screaming to do the things that are so easy to do, like expel this diplomat. Frankly, this diplomat is not expelled, of course. He has just been listed as persona non grata and is no longer protected. However, for these things the government should be taking action on, it is not. It is not acting fast enough. It is not participating in building a stronger democracy in ways I would like to see.
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- May/8/23 10:38:28 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I am not one hundred per cent sure what coming votes the member is talking about, but obviously, we would determine how we were voting on something based on which vote it was. That is generally how that works.
I think what she might be referring to is the supply and confidence agreement, where we were able to get the government to move forward on certain things because they are very important values that we hold. We will continue to push the government to do things such as make sure that there is affordable housing, dental care for Canadians and all of those things.
When the government is doing things that we disagree with, I think we are a very effective opposition at being able to hold it to account to make sure that it recognizes it has to take those actions. The fact that we have a diplomat that has been expelled is because all parties in the House were able to do that.
Today, in fact, a vote on the motion was brought forward that we were able to vote on, along with my colleague from the Bloc and, in fact, with the Conservatives, which I guarantee is not a normal state of affairs. We were able to vote as, I guess we can call it, a coalition of the three other parties.
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- May/8/23 10:40:24 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague's work in the House on mental health for Canadians is really unparalleled, and I think we all benefit from having him here and the work that he does.
With regard to the public inquiry, as I said in my speech, I think it is really one of the only ways that we can ensure that Canadians are able to get that confidence back in our system. I certainly hope that when the special rapporteur comes back with his report, that is one of the things he tells us that he needs. Certainly, that is something I am expecting and looking forward to. The scope of that public inquiry is very important.
Another thing that we have talked about is the foreign registry and how important the foreign registry is. If we do not do it right, and if we do not do the foreign registry, it could actually be more dangerous than not. I think there are a lot of ways that we have to look at this. One of them is that we have to make sure that we are as transparent and as open as we possibly can be. We have to ensure that we are recognizing that this is not an issue that is just one country. This is an issue that is for multiple jurisdictions. I think there are ways we can get there if we all choose to work together.
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- May/8/23 10:43:32 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I agree with the member, which again, does not happen very often. I am also very concerned about some of the levels of diplomatic corps we have within this country.
I will say that our diplomatic corps was absolutely decimated under the Harper Conservatives. We never built back after the number of embassies that were closed under the Harper Conservatives and the selling of our embassy in the U.K. People wonder why we do not have the same number of diplomatic staff in the U.K., but we sold the building. The fact that it was decimated under Harper, and the Conservatives are standing up to say that they wish we had more diplomatic corps for some of these countries, is a little rich.
That said, I do agree with the member. I do not understand the numbers that we see for China, Russia and some of these countries. Really, we should have serious concerns about their interference in our democratic institutions.
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