Hon. Leo Housakos: Senator Gold, we heard more explosive evidence on “ArriveScam” last week at a House of Commons committee.

Thank God for the Conservative opposition for trying to hold this government to account. For that matter, thank God for the Conservative opposition in this new independent Senate. It seems this is the only group who is really preoccupied by “ArriveScam.” We’re the only ones asking any questions of you.

Last week, the committee heard again from the only two senior bureaucrats involved with this faulty and fraudulent scheme that the chief technology officer, Minh Doan — who oversaw the whole thing — deleted tens of thousands of emails related to “ArriveScam.” Yet, he received a promotion within your government, and the two whistle-blowers are the only two people who suffered consequences. That’s how much you care about getting to the bottom of these allegations or innuendoes, or whatever you call them. Why is that, Senator Gold? Why is your government protecting Minh Doan? Is it because he was following the instructions of the Trudeau government, and now you don’t want him to point fingers back at this government?

Senator Housakos: Senator Gold, the only thing your government is doing is trying to obstruct the parliamentary committee from getting to the bottom of things. You’re deleting emails and preventing us from obtaining answers to simple questions. Senator Gold, “ArriveScam” has been slammed by the procurement watchdog and the Auditor General, and it is currently under criminal investigation. Are they all partisan as well? We know that, at minimum, at least 10,000 Canadians were mistakenly sent to quarantine by glitches of this shameful app. Senator Gold, how can your government — in good conscience — continue to fight these Canadians in court and hold them to huge outstanding fines in relation to what we now know was a fraudulent app?

Hon. Leo Housakos: Senator Gold, last week, I asked Minister Duclos who is responsible at the Canada Border Services Agency, or CBSA, and Public Services and Procurement Canada, or PSPC, for verifying outside consultants and subcontractors. We saw disturbing information this morning in The Globe and Mail about how $54 million of taxpayers’ money has been spent on ArriveCAN — on consultants who not only fudged their CVs but fabricated expertise for companies that, it seems, do not even exist. Given that information — and the fact that your government, since 2015, has increased spending on outside subcontractors and consultants by 74% — how can you possibly justify all this?

Can you tell this floor who in the Trudeau government is responsible for vetting these contracts? At the end of the day, ArriveCAN has become a fraud, a fiasco and an “ArriveScam.” Who is accountable for this?

Senator Housakos: No one is being held accountable, but we know there are all kinds of investigations because this whole thing stinks. Senator Gold, while we still have a lot to learn about the rot that is “ArriveScam,” one thing is abundantly clear: Hard‑working, law-abiding everyday Canadians are facing exorbitant fines associated with this get-rich scheme for Liberal insiders — Canadians like Mr. Milad, a local tailor here in Ottawa, who was returning home from visiting his family in the Middle East and will now have to close his shop to travel to Montreal for a court date, costing him tons of money, Senator Gold.

When will your government do the right thing — while these investigations continue — and at least cancel the outstanding ArriveCAN fines that Canadians are being saddled with?

Hon. Leo Housakos (Acting Deputy Leader of the Opposition): Minister, back to the “ArriveScam,” clearly, we now know that the RCMP is investigating, and we know the RCMP doesn’t open investigations lightly. If they are investigating, it is because they think something criminal has happened or, at bare minimum, something fraudulent or inappropriate.

Have you taken the mitigating steps to make sure this occurrence does not reoccur in the near future?

Hon. Leo Housakos (Acting Deputy Leader of the Opposition): Welcome, minister. My question is also on “ArriveScam.” It’s the same one I asked your colleague Senator Gold last week, but I’m hoping to get a somewhat more relevant answer from you. “ArriveScam” saw Canadians unlawfully detained and unconstitutionally fined as much as $8,500, then threatened with more fines — as much as $750,000 — if caught breaking quarantine. It was bad enough when we thought these fines were paying for your government’s complete failure in awarding this outrageous $54-million-plus contract, but, minister, what assurances can you give me that Canadians weren’t being unlawfully detained and forced to pay these outrageous fines so that friends of Liberal insiders could line their pockets? Will your government do the right thing, minister, and please cancel the outstanding fines associated with this fraudulent app that many thousands of Canadians are saddled with?

I’m not going to insist on that because these are figures that Canadians understand well. When we speak about failures, I think we have to be honest and modest at the same time. Honest about the tremendous challenges that Canadians face and modest in the sense that, yes, the efforts of the Canadian government made a big difference; but more importantly, it was the faith, support and hard work of all Canadians that made the biggest difference in these terrible times.

Senator Housakos: Based on the polling of Canadians, they seem to think that your government has been a monumental failure.

Minister Duclos, as my colleague Senator Plett mentioned, there is now an RCMP investigation into “ArriveScam” involving very serious allegations of forgery of documents, such as CVs and invoices. Minister, at a time when we’ve seen an unprecedented increase of more than 30% in government outsourcing of contracts, what assurances do Canadians have that the minimum due diligence is being exercised? Who is responsible for something as simple as verifying CVs and conducting proper reference checks? If we can’t have confidence that’s being done, minister, how can we have confidence that contracts are being awarded properly?

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Senator Housakos: Minister, we all know there have been huge overrun costs when it comes to managing this project. That’s number one. We do know, as parliamentarians, that in itself raises red flags.

We also know that when the RCMP opens an investigation, at bare minimum, there is a suspicion of wrongdoing.

Again, what steps have you taken, as a minister who has just gotten into the ministry, to make sure you get to the bottom of this before we wait for an RCMP report or an Auditor General’s report? What pre-emptive steps have you taken to look into this case and give us assurances that this will never reoccur?