Hon. Julie Miville-Dechêne: Senator Gold, a year ago, during the study of Bill C-11, you said this about my age verification amendment:

. . . The Government of Canada is looking to introduce legislation to address potential online harms with the goal of keeping all Canadians safe online, including being safe from the kind of harm that this amendment would propose. In the government’s view, this would be the most appropriate forum, in the context of that legislation, to discuss this important issue. . . .

In other words, the government said, “We’ll take care of the issue in our online safety bill.”

Today, the government finally introduced its long-awaited bill, and there’s no age verification to prevent children from accessing online porn. So my question is this: What happened to that clear commitment?

Senator Miville-Dechêne: Yes.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: Honestly, no, I wasn’t aware of that. That was in one of the briefs submitted to Quebec’s commission on end-of-life care. They discuss the situation in Belgium and in the Netherlands. It’s a bit different. All right, then, I’ll take you at your word.

But there is certainly more than one expert who’s uncertain about the irremediability of psychiatric disorders. It’s a difficult debate. You mention evidence and the fact that it’s beyond dispute, but I think that the Council of Canadian Academies, a respected scientific organization, also reached similar findings on the issue of irremediability. These are professionals, but not physicians only. From what I understand, they are also scientists from various backgrounds. That, too, is not insignificant. It is a social debate. Yes, physicians are very important, but I think the debate is broader than that.

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Senator Miville-Dechêne: That’s a difficult question. I don’t think politics is a perfect science. I think we’re all trying to find the right way forward in dealing with the very difficult issue that is MAID, broadly speaking.

I think there are specific criteria for psychiatric illnesses that make irremediable consequences generally more difficult to establish than for physical illnesses. I’m not saying, Senator Kutcher, that this is absolute. I’m saying that, based on what I’ve read and on the discussions I’ve had, this is part of the difficulty.

I also think that the safeguards need to be robust. I understand that it is difficult and, as you know, our opinions on this issue differ. I understand that there are people who are waiting for this help and who are suffering, but I believe that what happened in Belgium and the Netherlands shows us that once we open MAID up to those with psychiatric problems... When 1,150 people are requesting MAID in a country that is smaller than Canada, that’s a lot of people. You often talk about people you know who have indeed had illnesses for a very long time, who have tried every treatment, but once that door is open, how will it work? Unlike you, I don’t have absolute confidence in all doctors, all medications and all treatments. I think there are abuses. The fact that there have been 16 cases of MAID in Quebec where tough questions are being asked because it appears the law was not followed shows that these questions are far from easy.

I don’t have a definite answer. I wonder, I have doubts and I think you do, too. However, we have fairly opposite points of view on this issue.

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