Senator Miville-Dechêne: First of all, your internet connection is not very good so I missed some of what you said. Putting that aside, there is no one specific moment when we need to conduct a study or pre-study. You keep repeating that the session is ending in four weeks.

I have to admit that I find it absolutely unbelievable to start hearing from senators in May that we no longer have time to do things. I must say that this is not in keeping with my former experience as a journalist, where we used all the time at our disposal to get things done. I know that politics is different, and I am aware of that, but it’s quite concerning when I hear, “No can do, we’re out of time.” We are discussing the fact that we have no time left, instead of doing what needs to be done. That is just absurd.

I am not saying that we need to do a pre-study on everything. As Senator Saint-Germain stated, we are not quite back to normal. We don’t have enough time in committee. I’m sure this has an impact on the pace of our work. I am convinced that we should probably conduct pre-studies for bills that are more important, more complex and, in this case, controversial. It’s obvious that there will be more controversy.

My stance on this is pretty firm, but I understand that you don’t agree with me, Senator Housakos. We can debate this in our committee and try to bring in good witnesses to answer our questions.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: Yes. May I have another five minutes, with leave of the chamber?

Senator Miville-Dechêne: Certainly, Senator Dupuis.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: Of course.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: Of course, Senator Cormier.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: That’s exactly why I’m saying that in this case, if we want to do a pre-study, it would be urgent to get on it instead of just talking about it. If we continue to discuss this and vote next week, we’re losing out on 10 potential days of work.

No, I’ve never experienced that problem before, and I probably shouldn’t have compared journalism to politics. I just wanted to highlight this idea of using all of the time available to get things done, instead of simply talking about deadlines and saying that we don’t have enough time.

(On motion of Senator Martin, debate adjourned.)

[English]

Senator Miville-Dechêne: Certainly, and I have heard them as well. I didn’t attend the same summit you did, but of course, since we know that music and other cultural products are so central to francophone minority culture, it should be obvious that this issue is important.

Hon. Julie Miville-Dechêne: My speech will show that, at the same committee, two members of the Independent Senators Group have different positions. No, I have not been “whipped,” as you would say, Senator Plett. I rise to speak in favour of Motion No. 42 and to support a pre-study of Bill C-11 by the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications, of which I am the deputy chair.

The online streaming act is crucial for the future of broadcasting in a world where more and more cultural products are moving to the digital realm and where listening and viewing habits are changing at breakneck speed. For Quebecers and francophones across the country, the main concern with regard to this bill is how much space French-language music and film will be able to occupy in the online streaming arena. I should mention that in Quebec, French-language music is still protected by quotas of approximately 30% that apply to radio, but with the migration to Spotify, YouTube and other platforms, no more than 8% of the songs being streamed are in French.

Therefore, this is an important bill, but it is also complex because it involves many stakeholders.

[English]

But let’s get back to the motion before us, which is about a pre-study of the bill.

Since my arrival in the Senate, the complaint I hear most often is that we do not have enough time to study bills in depth. I have experienced this myself, of course. I find it very frustrating. The calendar, the bottleneck at the end of sessions, parliamentary tactics — many factors conspire to reduce the time we have to carefully study legislation.

In his question, Senator Plett said that we only had five sessions in four weeks to do this possible pre-study if we vote for it, but in fact if we had passed that motion on Tuesday, when it was presented, we would have had one and a half extra weeks. So by debating this particular motion, we are once again losing time, and I am once again frustrated.

This context is precisely why I believe a pre-study of Bill C-11 would be particularly useful.

I see two main reasons. The first is that a pre-study would give us more time to hear from key witnesses, experts from various persuasions, affected groups and so on; in short, to understand the fundamental tenets of this important bill.

I would like to cite our honourable colleague Senator Patterson who, in February 2019, supported the pre-study of Bill C-91, An Act respecting Indigenous languages, in these words:

. . . I rise briefly today to speak in support of this motion calling for a pre-study of Bill C-91 . . . . This is a bill that is vitally important to get right. With this ever-increasing slough of legislation we all know about, we need the time to do our jobs. A pre-study is a responsible way of taking advantage of the time available to the Aboriginal Peoples Committee at this moment.

I could not agree more.

I know that some of my colleagues are worried about wasting their time studying a bill that could be substantially amended by the House of Commons. I understand these concerns and I share them in part for the more technical aspects of this bill.

But on the substantive issues — on the main orientations and the political foundations of this bill — the questions and positions are well known, and they will not change.

In my opinion, the Transport and Communications Committee could benefit from a pre-study to learn about other models of cultural promotion around the world and to hear and understand the political and ideological visions that will inevitably clash over Bill C-11.

I also think that members of the committee — myself very much included — would also benefit from certain educational presentations on the technological aspects of contemporary platforms, very basic, user-friendly presentations, in some case. This kind of presentation seems to me particularly appropriate for a pre-study, and if I can make a joke, appropriate for our age group.

The second reason why a pre-study seems useful is that it should have no impact on the duration of the formal study of Bill C-11 as it will be adopted by the other place. We retain control over our future agenda. Although the government may want us to pass its bill quickly — and that is evident — it will be up to us at that time to resist the pressure if we feel that we do not have the time to do our job properly. There is no election or prorogation in sight. Bill C-11 will not die if we continue to study after June. If anything, a pre-study will give us more time to study the bill and understand its context, not less.

I am confident that we have all the tools necessary to resist the pressure to pass this bill quickly once the pre-study is completed. I know that, for some of us, pre-studies should only be accepted in very few circumstances because the Senate is a legislative body, not an advisory one. According to this logic, it should therefore intervene after the House of Commons, and not concurrently.

With respect, I do not find this principle very convincing in this case. A pre-study of Bill C-11 would simply allow us to perform our legislative work with more expertise and a better understanding of the complex issues and technology underlying this bill. Nothing prevents us now, or later, from taking all the time necessary and using the full powers of the Senate to debate and improve the bill as we see fit.

Pre-studies were rare traditionally, but times can change. Right now, the Senate is studying Bill S-5, an important piece of legislation before the other place. I support this initiative, and I can certainly confirm that this has not diminished the quality of our work. Many amendments are being considered, as we saw this morning.

In any case, I don’t think we should be prisoners of tradition. The risk seems especially high for the Senate, an institution that some consider outdated. For all these reasons, I think we should be flexible and seize the opportunity of a pre-study when it offers us a chance to have more time and expertise to perform our legislative duties. I believe this is what a pre-study of Bill C-11 would allow us to do.

Thank you.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: No, I wouldn’t agree. You seem to think that the current process, in which a bill spends time in the House of Commons before coming to the Senate, is a flawless process that works very well.

However, last year’s study of Bill C-10 highlighted the flaws in our traditional process. Two out of the four months we had were literally wasted on filibustering. That was around half of our time. I was one of the people who was waiting and who thought that the Senate would conduct a pre-study, which would have helped us better understand all of the issues related to the bill, but that is not what happened.

The system we have is not perfect. We can try something new, as is the case with Bill S-5. I don’t think that there is an overwhelming consensus on that bill. In that case, we started studying the bill in the Senate. Unlike you, I find it quite helpful to start working on bills, because we can get an idea of others’ opinions in the early stages of the process.

I understand that conducting a pre-study at the same time as a bill is being studied in the House of Commons is not quite in line with our role as a chamber of sober second thought. However, I don’t see how that would diminish our role or prevent us from doing our job well. On the contrary, I think that we get a better understanding of a bill if we spend time on a pre-study and then study it. It makes perfect sense.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: Of course. We could bring in technology experts to teach us about algorithms, how to prioritize certain options and what kinds of things to do or not do. In this case, the government said it was not using algorithms. Why? Are there other ways to influence content availability so that users can see Canadian content? These are very complex issues that my son understands a lot better than I do because he is a big fan of Spotify. I am not.

We could definitely play an educational role, and those experts would be available to the Senate. Our meetings are public. At a time when culture is virtual and efforts to protect culture tie into the virtual world, it is very important to understand what we are doing.

I think you are right about how the general public, myself included for sure, does not thoroughly grasp all these concepts. Would it be a bad thing to do a pre-study? Absolutely not. The more we know, the better we are and the better our decisions are.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: The cultural sector wants to see a speedy resolution. Let’s face it, the government has made some mistakes.

Following the 2015 election, the government had a really hard time understanding and admitting that this area needed some attention, and the Liberals said they would make deals and resolve the issue amicably. However, the Trudeau government did fall behind on this, and that is on them.

However, from the moment Bill C-10 was introduced, it was hotly debated, but there was also a lot of filibustering. A lot of time was wasted. Obviously, the more time passes, the more listening habits tend to crystallize and the more young people ask themselves why they should listen to French-language music, because they think Spotify is a good tool. As I often say, the user is not free to choose. What is presented to this francophone user is English-language content, so it becomes a vicious circle and we end up listening to music in English, because that’s what we’re fed. The same is true of YouTube.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: Yes.