Hon. Mary Jane McCallum: I wanted to say that the three, especially the AFN — I know for certain — are not rights holders. They represent rights holders, but they aren’t themselves.

I have heard of CAP before. They were a really great organization at one time, and then it fell into disarray. I know because I worked and I heard what happened there. That is why I asked them the questions in the committee. I asked them the questions and asked them to send the answers by the end of that week. They never sent the answers, and those are critical.

I became concerned that they weren’t doing the work they are saying they do and they’re not representing the people they say they do. If they were doing such great work — and we keep hearing that, but with this group of CAP, I have not heard one example of great work. I have tried to be fair to them. I have told them four times that I would like this information, and they never came back with it. That makes me suspicious.

When you say there’s respect for past contributions, yes, we have that, but we need to respect what is happening now. My sense is that there is very little being done.

Yes, this bill is extremely important, and we need to base it on truth. We have not received truth from CAP. We understand NWAC; we worked extensively with them on Bill C-69, working with Indigenous women across the country, so I know how hard they work.

You can’t say there’s symmetry or it’s not fair. I look at who does the work. I will support those.

There is the issue of “pretendians” and identity theft. That was the basis. Who is CAP? They still have not said who they are. There is not a CAP organization in Manitoba. I don’t know anyone whom they represent, and that is why if we say this is truth and reconciliation, then let’s base it on truth. Not one person here has said what they’ve done.

I just wanted to put that out there. I don’t have anything against them. If they had told me what they did, who their membership was, and what they had accomplished, I would support them, but I can’t.

Senator McCallum: Yes, I do. There has been talk about the 194 signatories. However, as I said — and this came from the report from the other place — in the bill there is no off-the-shelf solution. Any response must be distinctions-based and recognize the need for individual communities to craft their own solutions as desired in order to respect their inherent rights.

What did the voices that were outside these 194 signatories tell you about how they’re going to be proceeding with their own framework?

Senator McCallum: Senator Cotter, there are a lot of unresolved issues here for rights holders in this bill. How will the lived experiences of rights holders in the Prairie provinces be meaningfully addressed when you see Alberta and Saskatchewan, with Manitoba not far behind, ignoring the rights holders in the acts that they are bringing forward? How do you see that being addressed in this bill?

Senator Cotter: As you will see in the bill, Senator McCallum, there is a requirement of consultation and dialogue with Indigenous leadership in the Prairies. That’s a mandate imposed upon the minister who coordinates this work, and, I presume, the other ministers who will have a role here.

Maybe I could answer this with an example of what I think is an opportunity lost in the past, but may be there in the future.

When you think about economic opportunity — let me focus on that first — the opportunities for Indigenous people, but particularly First Nations, have been badly circumscribed by treaties, treaty lands and reserves. I think you and I are on the same wavelength there. In fact, a lot of those, if you look at the maps — Saskatchewan is, perhaps, the worst case — are not just being put on small, postage stamp-sized reserves, but also at the margins of a productive economy in the province, at least in the days when agriculture seemed like the story. So Indigenous people and communities never had a chance to get off the ground.

The place where those conversations have been the richest have been in relation to traditional territories. Not the postage stamp-sized reserves, but the areas where First Nations tended to live traditionally, which often covered vast areas.

One of the ways of trying to build an economy is to create opportunities for Indigenous people and communities to tap into those resources. It’s tricky if you’re a provincial government because usually tapping into those resources — which conventionally provincial governments have understood to be theirs or belonging to all the people — are a source of revenue to run the programs of the province. What you need is a partnership with the province and the Government of Canada because in the Constitution Indians and land reserved for Indians are the constitutional responsibility of Ottawa. It’s possible for the Government of Canada to support those developments, sometimes with support for equity, but also support for sharing the constraints or the opportunity costs for the provinces.

Ottawa has not always been open to that. I don’t know where this will go. I am hoping that imaginative ideas to unlock that potential that was taken away will occur. There are people a lot smarter than me coming up with these ideas, but I think there is a remarkable amount of potential to do that if the goodwill is there.

Provinces are vulnerable in some respects. Sometimes when oil revenues and others are really good, it looks pretty good, but provinces are vulnerable to having to give up large amounts of their tax base. But partnerships with the Government of Canada, which has a fiduciary obligation here and was the mechanism for taking away that opportunity, I think there is a duty that rests with Canada.

I hope that is at least partly helpful.