44th Parl. 1st Sess.
November 21, 2022
- 03:46:51 p.m.
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Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to make it clear to committee members that my English is good enough that I can answer any questions they ask in English after my presentation.
I'm appearing before the committee today not only as a lawyer and professor, but more importantly as a researcher. I completed my doctoral studies in labour law at the London School of Economics. My field of study was specifically child labour in countries or regions that are not as developed as Canada, and specifically in the Indian state of Uttar Pradesh and in Africa.
I'd like to summarize my three comments on Bill S‑211.
My first comment is about the preamble.
The first whereas of the bill's preamble suggests that forced labour and child labour are forms of modern slavery. I agree wholeheartedly that forced labour constitutes a form of modern slavery, but I wouldn't say that all forms of child labour constitute modern slavery. In my opinion, the definition of what constitutes slavery is problematic. Many forms of child labour do not constitute slavery. For terminological reasons, it would be important to correct that, in my view.
My second, more substantive comment concerns the very definition of child labour found in the “Definitions” section of the bill. This definition should not be used. Let me elaborate.
It seems to me that two paragraphs in the proposed definition are somewhat inappropriate for an initiative aiming to realistically reduce child labour. I'm referring to paragraphs (a) and (c).
Paragraph (a) refers to work or services that are “provided or offered to be provided in Canada under circumstances that are contrary to the laws applicable in Canada”.
Paragraph (c) refers to work or services provided or offered by persons under the age of 18 years that “interfere with their schooling by depriving them of the opportunity to attend school, obliging them to leave school prematurely or requiring them to attempt to combine school attendance with excessively long and heavy work”.
In my opinion, these two paragraphs are problematic and I will quickly explain why.
Based on the studies I've done in developing countries, I would say that the types of work some children are found to do are quite acceptable from the perspective of parents who are in absolutely dire straits. However, we don't always consider such dire straits when taking a critical look at child labour around the world.
I will simply give you a typical example to clarify my opinion.
Sometimes children find themselves in situations where, although their work forces them to postpone or suspend their schooling, it doesn't necessarily harm their health or safety and it's legitimized. When a ban on child labour is strictly enforced, situations arise where children are essentially forced to perform even more dangerous work, with their parents' permission. This is what we've observed on the ground. For example, children who were forbidden to weave carpets found themselves making bricks a few weeks later in even more dangerous circumstances that were detrimental to their health. We have seen situations where young girls who were forbidden to weave saris would later find themselves on the street working as prostitutes.
I'll give you a very simple example—imagine a mother whose husband has died and must have her 13‑year‑old son work to support her family.
That's the gist of what I wanted to tell you today. I'll save the rest of the time to answer your questions.
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- 04:15:35 p.m.
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All right, Mr. Chair.
Actually, I don't know that it would strengthen the definition of child labour, but I would focus the definition by removing the two problem paragraphs that I mentioned, paragraphs (a) and (c).
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- 04:16:04 p.m.
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Actually, removing those paragraphs focuses the definition on the worst kinds of child labour, and that's definitely more effective, in my opinion.
I'll give you an example. Sometimes standards will look great on paper, but in reality, they end up very poorly enforced because it's extremely difficult to track child labour. If you want to go out there and check whether or not children are working, local communities must permit and trust you to—
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- 04:16:40 p.m.
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- 04:17:48 p.m.
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Yes, thank you.
The third comment is that it's very difficult to effectively monitor a ban on child labour, and it's even more random when monitoring relies on written reports, as is intended here.
That being said, if you are planning to check your facts against written statements, ideally it should be about the worst forms of child labour, to avoid two problems. First, the unintended consequences of a strict ban should be avoided, that is, one prohibited job being replaced by another, like prostitution or child trafficking, that's even more dangerous. The second issue to avoid is the concealing of visible forms of child labour through clandestine employment. If the definition of child labour is too broad, communities that consider some forms of child labour to be legitimate will hide evidence of such work and turn it into a form of clandestine labour.
Some adverse effects of regulation have been observed in the past, and I'd like to draw the committee's attention to them.
Focusing on the worst types of child labour is a good thing, because in any event, the situation would be improved for a child facing difficult circumstances. In other cases, one would risk affecting situations in which the child's work and pay provide crucial assistance to their family in dire straits. For example, imagine a single-parent family where one parent has died and a 13‑year‑old boy becomes the sole breadwinner for the family. Some countries don't have the social safety net that we have in Canada, and parents find themselves in dire straits there. It's much more common than you might think.
So that's a realistic perspective that I'm trying to put forward here.
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- 04:21:32 p.m.
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It's important to understand, however, that even if we do allow some forms of child labour in Canada, we're still in a situation where we can prevent these working children from sacrificing too much of their education. On the other hand, in some countries, suspending studies can be the lesser of two evils, as I explained earlier. It also prevents undesirable situations where one prohibited job is replaced by another job that's prohibited but even more dangerous.
Therefore, I'd like to warn the committee about this problem that often arises in the fight against child labour.
That said, even if you change nothing in the bill, I'm convinced that out there, it will be hard to fully enforce a ban on child labour, because you won't have the cooperation you need from local communities to prevent it.
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- 04:33:20 p.m.
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I'm not sure how much better we'll do in terms of transparency than other countries. However, I do know that even if we want to achieve a very high level of transparency, it will be very difficult in practice to get assurance that the monitoring will actually be done on the ground.
As I was saying earlier, if we want to ensure that children aren't involved in the manufacture of particular products, we need to gain the trust of the local community to prove it. Personally, I've been there, and that's how it works. Otherwise, it's very easy to hide child labour. To gain that trust, we have to target the worst forms of child labour. Otherwise, we won't have access to barriers that are sometimes even guarded by armed men. So to overcome the difficulty of obtaining this evidence, there has to be a local consensus on what forms of child labour are unacceptable.
If we're looking at a definition of child labour that is too broad, we're demonstrating a certain western paternalism. That's what should be avoided. We must avoid having a form of transparency that would be overly paternalistic. I would caution the committee on that.
For the more administrative aspects, the same reasoning must be followed. If we want to improve the effectiveness of our monitoring and transparency, we must first ensure that the forms of child labour we are targeting are the worst. That is how we will improve our model in all areas, both administratively and in terms of effective monitoring afterwards.
Otherwise, I think it's a bit of a smoke and mirrors game.
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