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Decentralized Democracy

House Hansard - 266

44th Parl. 1st Sess.
December 12, 2023 10:00AM
Context: House Hansard - 266 - Dec/12/23
Mr. Brad Vis
  • Dec/12/23 11:31:15 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, we all know that Liberal Party members do not like to participate in debate. They defer to the member for Winnipeg North to do their dirty work—
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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès)
  • Dec/12/23 11:31:27 a.m.
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We are not going to enter into that debate. The hon. member for Kingston and the Islands has a point of order.
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Mr. Mark Gerretsen
  • Dec/12/23 11:31:34 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, we have seen this happen before, and it is about the procedure in this House. I know sometimes when this member speaks and sometimes when I speak, there is a coordinated effort among Conservative members to stand up on points of order that quite often are not anywhere near points of order, as the member just did. I am looking to you for guidance, Madam Speaker, as to how you will deal with this procedurally if they continually get up on points of order, especially when they are not relevant or not real points of order. How will you ensure that the member has the opportunity to properly debate in this House?
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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès)
  • Dec/12/23 11:32:12 a.m.
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Absolutely. The hon. member for Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, on the same point of order.
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Mr. James Bezan
  • Dec/12/23 11:32:16 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, my point of order was on Standing Order 18, which you definitely ruled on. I have still not heard the member for Winnipeg North retract his inflammatory statements.
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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux
  • Dec/12/23 11:32:31 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, on that point of order, I have been a parliamentarian for 30 years, and if we say that a member cannot reflect on a vote, one has to take a look at the traditions. It is not just what is in the book but also the traditions, and traditionally— Some hon. members: Oh, oh!
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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès)
  • Dec/12/23 11:32:48 a.m.
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The hon. parliamentary secretary knows that if another member feels something is disruptive or offensive, we have to act on it. The standing order does say that we do not reflect on votes, so I would ask the hon. parliamentary secretary to retract.
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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux
  • Dec/12/23 11:33:04 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, I am looking for clarity on the issue, because I think this is really important. At the end of the day, I cannot imagine how a member of Parliament or any parliamentarian would not be able to challenge a member for the manner in which their caucus is voting. I cannot imagine a world where it would be unparliamentary to do that. Every political party that I am aware of has done that throughout my 30 years in Parliament, whether it is here or at the Manitoba legislature. I would ask, with all due respect, that we reflect on the traditions of the House. Just because one opposition party is sensitive to the truth, I should not be censored from being able to express the reality on the floor of the House of Commons in Canada today.
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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès)
  • Dec/12/23 11:34:01 a.m.
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While the hon. parliamentary secretary may be right in terms of traditions, I have to refer to the Standing Orders as they stand. The hon. member for Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman rose on a point of order, and there is a standing order reflecting that we cannot refer to votes, so I have to apply it. I ask the hon. parliamentary secretary to retract. The hon. parliamentary secretary.
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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux
  • Dec/12/23 11:34:21 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, I suspect that if we were to go through the Standing Orders today, we would find a number of Standing Orders that are somewhat redundant and do not necessarily have value. I would suggest this is one of those Standing Orders, and I would ask—
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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès)
  • Dec/12/23 11:34:37 a.m.
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I would agree with the hon. member, but it is not up to me. I am not the one to change Standing Orders as we go. We have a process for that. The hon. member for Kingston and the Islands.
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Mr. Mark Gerretsen
  • Dec/12/23 11:34:56 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, there is another Standing Order that says we are not allowed to sing in the House, yet the member for Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, when introducing a petition earlier today, was singing. I think it would only be appropriate that the petition be removed from the record, because he presented it in a way that goes against our Standing Orders. As a member, I would like to call that out. Some hon. members: Oh, oh!
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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès)
  • Dec/12/23 11:35:07 a.m.
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Nobody raised it at the time so it passed. The hon. member for Brandon—Souris, on the same point of order, I presume.
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Mr. Larry Maguire
  • Dec/12/23 11:35:24 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, yes, but I will get to my point in a moment. If the member who just spoke is calling out the member for Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon for singing today, he is pretty loose with what he calls singing. I just want to say—
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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès)
  • Dec/12/23 11:35:40 a.m.
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We are judging artistic capacity here. The hon. member for Brandon—Souris has the floor.
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Mr. Larry Maguire
  • Dec/12/23 11:35:50 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, the member across the way for Winnipeg North has challenged the Speaker's ruling.
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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès)
  • Dec/12/23 11:35:55 a.m.
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I think the hon. member was trying to see if tradition overrides the Standing Orders, if I understand correctly the point the hon. parliamentary secretary was making.
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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.)
  • Dec/12/23 11:36:06 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, I talk about traditions, and all one needs to do is take a look at question periods. In the debates I have witnessed, the way in which members have voted is constantly being reflected on. All I am asking is for some clarity, and I do not think clarity can be decided instantaneously. It is something that should be brought back and thought through, because it is a very important ruling you need to make, Madam Speaker, given the very nature of what I am asking for.
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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès)
  • Dec/12/23 11:36:46 a.m.
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It will be taken under advisement because it has been raised. The hon. member for Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon.
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Mr. Brad Vis (Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, CPC)
  • Dec/12/23 11:36:55 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, Standing Order 11(b) says, “In the event of a member disregarding an order of the Chair made pursuant to paragraph (a) of this section, the Speaker shall order the removal of the member.” Not only did the member for Winnipeg North disregard your order, but he then went on to state that the Standing Orders were not relevant. The Standing Orders under the Parliament of Canada Act are the rules by which we govern democracy in Canada. They are relevant.
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