44th Parl. 1st Sess.
April 5, 2022 10:00AM
- Apr/5/22 10:29:53 a.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for her speech.
It is pretty clear that there needs to be more investment in the Canadian Armed Forces. The 2% target was set during an international agreement with people from NATO and it is reasonable.
However, there are a lot of questions about procurement and many concerns about wasting public money. I would like my colleague's opinion on that.
We only have to look at the saga with the fighter jets that were cancelled in 2015. The Liberals promised they would never buy them, but now they announce that they are doing just that. If those jets had been purchased several years ago, they may have been less expensive.
We can also think of the submarines. It makes no sense to buy four used submarines, one of which caught on fire. That claimed the life of one of our soldiers. What is more, if only one submarine had been purchased, it might still be operational.
I would like my colleague to tell us what can be done to improve the way public funds are managed. Is there a way we could pass a budget and depoliticize the procurement process? Could we entrust this to professionals to prevent it from becoming a promise made by a politician during an election campaign to win votes?
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- Apr/5/22 10:31:03 a.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I agree with my hon. friend on all his points, because there is a lot of waste in procurement. It is overpoliticized with this government. It needs to be streamlined.
We streamlined the procurement process when we were in Afghanistan. Canada showed it can be done. Once we withdrew, it became more complicated all over again. In the last seven years, the Liberal government has spent $865 million, and it spent another billion on used aircraft from Australia, only to get us back to the F-35s, which were the best choice all along for our needs here in Canada.
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- Apr/5/22 10:33:45 a.m.
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Mr. Speaker, of course that is kind of the name of the game: the government dragging its feet when it comes to procurement and paying attention to what we need in search and rescue equipment for our military. Right now we have a retention and recruitment problem, and yet we are offering new recruits old equipment, which is equipment that literally may not work and might put their lives in danger. One of the best tools for recruitment and retention is to get the tools we need. Our SAR personnel are the best in the world, and they deserve the best equipment.
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- Apr/5/22 11:02:26 a.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for his work on the Standing Committee on National Defence. It has been quite an honour. In terms of the procurement of the new fighter jets, of course, there must be fiscal impact assessments. However, I want to ask and ensure that the government will be performing an environmental impact assessment on this procurement process and also, under our obligations regarding the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, be doing an indigenous impact assessment as well.
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- Apr/5/22 11:15:50 a.m.
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Mr. Speaker, to be really clear, it was the Conservatives who cut billions of dollars. In this government, in a very brief six-year period, we are already finalizing a deal to acquire 88 new fighter jets for the RCAF; we are delivering the first Canadian-built ship in 20 years to the Canadian Navy; we are acquiring six offshore patrol vessels, of which two have already been delivered to the navy; we are beginning construction on a joint support ship that will provide at-sea replenishment as well as 4,000 jobs in Canada; and we are delivering rifles to our Rangers. This is real procurement and real work. We are getting the job done.
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- Apr/5/22 12:02:35 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, throughout my entire speech, I talked about the increase in funding. I talked about smart procurement. I talked about ensuring we have the equipment to fulfill our international role, but 2% is a political and arbitrary figure. I said that repeatedly. It has been said by experts repeatedly. I say yes to planning long term and yes to ensuring that we have what we need to fulfill that international role, but I say no to a political and arbitrary figure.
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- Apr/5/22 12:03:13 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, the member mentioned a reasonable spending plan. I think that it is reasonable to devote 2% of the GDP to the army so that it can fill in the gaps in the procurement system, which is slow, and with respect to recruitment, where it is not meeting any of its targets, and personnel retention, which is a major problem.
Can she explain to me why she opposes the 2% of GDP target?
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- Apr/5/22 12:47:44 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for his eloquent and clear speech.
I was reading the summary of the bill this morning and I was ashamed. It is embarrassing to read that billions of dollars are being poured into four old, leaky submarines and used planes, especially since the government first cancelled the purchase of these planes only to turn around and decide to buy them anyway. I would like to hear my colleague's opinion, which is usually interesting. Let us rise above partisanship. I know that the Liberals will say that the Conservatives are the ones who made budget cuts, but that is not what we are talking about.
How can we depoliticize this procurement system and finally show a modicum of respect to the men and women who agree to risk their lives for our security and safety?
This is not trivial. When I read that, I feel it is very disrespectful to the members of our armed forces. I would like to hear what my colleague has to say about that.
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- Apr/5/22 12:51:57 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, in Canadian procurement, what I have seen during my tenure here is that if something moves, we have a hard time buying it and there is always a problem. It does not matter if it is trucks, submarines or planes; it has been one thing after another.
I know that a lot of countries use procurement for defence and also for reindustrialization. I have a quick question for my colleague about that. Most recently we turned down an aircraft that would have resulted in more procurement in Canada than the F-35, which involves less domestic procurement. If the government is asking for a budgetary increase, should we not have a connection to actually buy Canadian?
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- Apr/5/22 1:05:04 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, with regard to the F-35 fighter jets and recruiting, we are told that there is no recruitment problem, but there is a retention problem.
When I look at the entirely deficient military procurement program, I cannot help but wonder if we will ever get any pilots in planes.
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- Apr/5/22 1:16:57 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I appreciate the parliamentary secretary being up front in his support of our Canadian Armed Forces and this motion.
My specific question for him is around his role as the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Services and Procurement. If we are going to get that 2% spending, a large proportion of it is going to be through procuring the right equipment in a timely fashion. I would argue that historically, regardless of the stripe of government over the past number of decades, part of the reason we failed to expend all our defence money was because of political interference in our procurement process.
What is the member specifically going to do in his role as the parliamentary secretary to speed up and facilitate our procurement process for the Canadian Armed Forces?
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- Apr/5/22 1:17:49 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, let us be very clear that there should be no politicization of the procurement process. We have heard that from every side, and there should not be. No party should take credit for procurements. We should all be working together as best as possible across party lines to make sure procurement happens with all of the different trade-offs that we agree on. There are things that we could buy faster if we did not buy them here in Canada, or if we did not insist on Canadian industrial participation. There are things we might be able to buy off the shelf that we would otherwise customize. We all need to work together to make sure we get procurement right.
We have a minister, who, I have to say, is a pleasure to work with every day. I know her biggest priority is to make sure that the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces get the equipment that they need as quickly as they can, according to the process set by the House, and to work with everyone to do that.
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- Apr/5/22 1:18:47 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I thank the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Services and Procurement for his excellent speech, which made it clear that he cares about workers. That is what I want to talk about.
When we talk about the national defence budget and the need to achieve the percentage of the GDP set by NATO, of course we have to think about procurement, but we also have to think about the people on the front lines using the new equipment. That is my major concern.
The Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities is currently conducting a study on the labour shortage. Yesterday, to my great surprise, the committee welcomed Canada's national police, the RCMP, who came to talk to us about the labour shortage. It is the same thing for the Canadian Forces. People need to enlist.
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- Apr/5/22 1:20:38 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, my hon. colleague across the way discussed procurement difficulties and streamlining the process, and one thing has been put forward on that. The Prime Minister has mandate letters to the Minister of Defence, the Minister of Procurement and the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans directing them to establish a centralized procurement process under a new department called “defence procurement Canada”. This has yet to be fulfilled.
Can the hon. parliamentary secretary indicate to us when this might be expected?
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- Apr/5/22 1:21:12 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I believe that was in the 2019 mandate letters. I do not believe it was in the 2021 mandate letters, so I cannot speak to that issue.
What I can speak to is that everybody needs to work across departments as best as possible to make sure that procurement happens in a timely way. I know that all of these departments are committed to doing that.
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- Apr/5/22 1:33:34 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I suppose his indignation is justified with how the Liberals have failed so miserably on the defence file.
Let me list a few of the successful procurement projects that existed under the Harper government. There was the purchase of five C-17 Globemaster transport planes, the 17 CC-130J Hercules transport planes, the 15 Chinook helicopters, the Leopard 2 tanks, the modernized CP-140 Aurora surveillance planes, the modernization of the Halifax-class frigates and the acquisition of the Asterix auxiliary oil replenishment vessel, which is a contract the Liberals tried to cancel despite Admiral Norman's objections.
I could go on, but let me look back a little further. The amount of work Stephen Harper did to rebuild our military after the decade of darkness that I hear about every single time I—
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- Apr/5/22 3:51:37 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, first and foremost, the world changed in 2014. As for the investments in the Canadian Armed Forces, without continuing to rely upon the peace dividend after the end of the Cold War, it was time to start making those major investments. That is why Prime Minister Harper signed on to the Wales Summit pledge that we would hit that 2% of GDP. It took the full-scale invasion of Ukraine to get there now.
We have to fix the procurement system. That is the only way we can ensure we get equipment delivered faster, and we can get the kit that is required. We need to use the Defence Production Act as much as possible and ensure that there is not a misappropriation of dollars in things like defence procurement. A lot of the things that we are talking about, including NORAD modernization, are going to require us to buy off the shelf. A lot of companies around the world make it and that is the way we are going to get the best kit for our troops.
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- Apr/5/22 4:05:13 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I have a brief response. I cannot even pretend to get into all the nuances and complexity of what the member is asking. I spent a year on an army defence procurement project. In my experience throughout my military career, the biggest challenge we had, and I think this probably exists in a lot of departments, was that we felt that if we did not spend it, we would lose it. The member's idea of carrying forward does not truly work, definitely not within DND.
When it comes to these defence procurement projects, the real challenge is the political interference. I believe this so much, and I do not mean they do it on purpose. It is because we can get into this idea of why this project is what we need. We can look at previous parties during different elections, with different campaigns and how they ran on certain things, but ultimately they need to get out of that. That is why I believe in non-partisan or bipartisan defence policy and foreign policy.
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- Apr/5/22 4:07:08 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, again, it is not an easy answer, but it is all of the above. We need to invest in our recruiting. Almost a decade ago, I tried to write a master's paper, and I failed miserably at that too, specifically about why we need to invest our best people within the Canadian Armed Forces into the recruiting system so we have that flexibility to recruit the best. As we all know, the huge labour shortages the country is facing, it is a shortage across most of the western world, so we have to get those right people.
The other key aspect the government could do to help fix this is on the procurement side. One of the things that we are actually lacking within the government, in my opinion, is enough expertise within defence procurement alone. If we can invest more to get those quality people into that, it would allow the procurement cycle to improve. By investing in training, investing in support for families and investing in our members, we can never go wrong.
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- Apr/5/22 4:35:55 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, let me begin by complimenting my colleague from Kings—Hants on his French. It was very nice to hear him.
He said that the government already started making investments in 2017, but there are three major problems in the armed forces: procurement, recruitment, and retention.
For example, with respect to procurement, forces members have been asked to buy their own boots lately because the government has been unable to provide them.
As for recruitment, the target is to have 25% women, but with all the sexual misconduct cases, which the government tried to cover up, it will not be easy to recruit women.
Finally, with respect to staff retention, the family structure has changed, and the constant moving around does not entice people to join the armed forces.
Has my hon. colleague considered these three major problems, which require investments?
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