Senator Pate: Yes.

Hon. Pierre J. Dalphond: Would Senator Pate agree to take another question?

Hon. Marty Klyne: Senator Pate, what we did hear from a lot of the witnesses, particularly those who were victims of very tragic, violent offences, is that they are not able to exist, they are not able to leave their homes in a sense of comfort. They would like to see this bill passed for that opportunity to have a little bit of a normal life and leave their home.

I understand what you are saying, and I agree. But sometimes it is said that one should not let perfection get in the way of progress.

I would like to see us solve all of the world’s issues on things. But I would also like us to attack some of the root cause issues. At the same time, I do not see why some of these women should suffer and have to be held captive in their own homes and afraid to leave. If that gives them some sense of comfort that, while it is not a deterrent, it is certainly a preventative measure to keep the individuals who are threatening them and cut out the — I am just wondering if you think that the two could not exist in a parallel process.

I totally understand and agree with what you are saying, but I do not want to throw the baby out with the bathwater here.

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Senator Pate, you will take another question?

[Translation]

Senator Pate: Thank you for the question. It’s the same thing that I have been saying here. In fact, I have spoken to those women. That was the most they felt they could get. They saw it as a way that the government could posit some support and appear to be dealing with violence against women. Some of them are from the same group who have now come forward in the CBC report that I mentioned in my comments. Those same groups are saying that this money could have been devoted to more bed spaces and might have had more effective use, because those in remote and rural communities were not being served by this.

So it goes back to the very point that I hope I have made clearly — but perhaps I haven’t, and thank you for the opportunity to rearticulate it — which is that it is not that women do not say they want this, but they say they want it when it is the only thing offered. That is the issue that I think we have to grapple with as a Senate.

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: It was moved by the Honourable Senator Pate, seconded by the Honourable Senator Dean, that this bill be read the second time.

Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?

Senator Pate: I am not sure if this was your question, but I agree with you.

Too often, when women come forward and talk about the violence that is a very real threat for them, they know, because they live it — it is a very real threat — it is not believed. That is the crux, in my humble opinion, as to why you and all of us are continuing to try and move on these issues. It is not the fact that it is not a violent offence. It is the fact that it is brought down to a he-said-she-said situation. The violence is minimized. The woman isn’t believed. There are racial reasons why. There are gendered reasons why. There are economic reasons why. I do not think that that is fair. I do not agree with that, but that is fundamentally why these tools are not used, because they are violent offences, and who knows better than the person who is experiencing the violence, as we both know from the many, many people — too many people — whom we have walked with and too many of whom are no longer with us.

Senator Pate: I want to prevent those deaths as well. Part of what we are talking about, and part of what I was trying to underscore, is what we also heard from folks who appeared before us, one issue being that we could already provide these provisions in law.

The Criminal Code currently allows for the types of interventions that you are talking about. The fact that they are not implemented or that violence against women is not taken seriously or the fact that many people do not report it is exactly part of the problem. It is not a desire to not have support or safety for any women, whether it is the women that you have been working with or the women that I work with. It is a function of looking at what will actually move things forward in the broader sense and protect lives overall.

I do not disagree with you. But these provisions have existed in law, and the fact that they have not been used is very much for some of the reasons that you and I both know, and the biases of the system.

It is difficult. I don’t understand; I’m not in your shoes. I sympathize, and I have similar attitudes and values and desires to see these issues addressed. Having worked in that system for so long, I cannot see this doing that. I want to see some measures that will actually change what happens. Thank you.

[Translation]

Senator Pate: I do not disagree with you. There were some people who came before us, and as I mentioned at committee, there were many women who called who did not want to come and talk about their personal situation in front of our committee, some of whom we are meeting with to talk about, for instance, Senator Manning’s framework discussions and the legislation that he is promoting, because they very much saw the same issues that were being discussed.

The least comfortable thing about this for me is that I don’t doubt for one minute the objectives that Senator Boisvenu has. I hope you don’t doubt that I have the same objectives. The fact is that the current provisions are not used, that provisions that have been brought in place to protect women, like mandatory charging practices, have been used mostly against women, especially Indigenous and other racialized women, and have resulted in them being criminalized in the context of them trying to escape violence. But when the police come or the Crown hears a story and — you heard Senator Simons talk about Justice Sheila Greckol, and but for Justice Sheila Greckol’s decision, Helen Naslund would still be serving time in prison — 18 years — because everybody believed that she was the problem, not the man who kept her imprisoned in her home and raped her and shot at her and shot at her children for 37 years.

That is the crux of the problem. We’re not addressing it. Each time we add a new measure that heaps on more legal provisions, we increase the cost without increasing the effectiveness. That is where I think we have a responsibility in our role as senators to take this seriously.

It is with heavy heart that I stand up and talk about these things because I have no doubt that every one of us wants to stop this. However, will we have the wherewithal to actually do the hard work necessary to make this happen?

Thank you.

[Translation]