Senator Dalphond: Could the government demonstrate its responsiveness to this matter with concrete action? Do we need to conduct a pre-study to repeat once again that the chamber has asked that Bill C-13 be amended so that it is finally amended or that we are told it will be amended?

(1450)

Senator LaBoucane-Benson: Are you aware that Bill C-92, which I sponsored a few Parliaments ago — and Bill C-15 just last Parliament — had a robust pre-study rolled into the study of the bill? I think it went quite successfully. We felt really good about the robustness of that study. That’s the first question.

Second, are you willing to disclose the voices that you have heard either in your head or maybe out of this chamber? Who is saying that there is going to be a study? Senator Gold has said that we’re not “buffaloing,” we’re not pushing or doing any of those things. As the Government Representative Office, we are interested in a really robust study as well.

Hon. Patti LaBoucane-Benson: In your estimation, can we still give time and space to the study of a bill and start a pre‑study as well? Does one preclude the other? The government is asking us to study — without a time frame and without constraints around anything other than asking us to study. Can we do that and give time and space?

Senator Simons: In fairness, Senator Dawson, I opposed a pre-study last year, too, for very much the same reasons.

I think we just have to be practical here. As I say, I’m not taking this position philosophically. It’s not because of years of parliamentary precedent. It’s not because of partisan reasons. The bill is going to be studied in committee six times this week in the House of Commons. They could be in clause-by-clause study by next week, and we could have the bill very shortly. I just don’t know that there is much point in starting up the mechanism of a pre-study when, if we waited 48 hours, we might be able to start a study in earnest.

Senator Wallin: Well, I mean, this is what we’re dealing with, that kind of request. We have kind of merged the two issues in that we have a request to pre-study legislation, but then we are told that we can roll that into a different kind of long-term process. That’s not how we do business. Either we do a pre‑study, as we have just completed on the budget, or we do an appropriate committee study in which we choose our timetable, we choose our witnesses and all of those things.

These are two different creatures, and they don’t just meld.

[Translation]

Senator Tannas: I caught your “if the study goes into September,” meaning that it might not. Depending on how you listen to things and how sensitive you are to the circumstances, it can be imputed many different ways.

I don’t feel that way about it. This is a bill with a large amount of controversy, as far as I can tell. I don’t know what the fuss is, but there is a lot of controversy around it. Why would we rush into the politically charged environment that is over in the House of Commons when we don’t have to? The government has said, “Take as long as you want. We want to get this right,” et cetera. Why would we rush in and potentially diminish the work we will do afterwards by being seen to be part of the show in the House of Commons?

Senator Moncion: I am not sure that I understand your point correctly. In terms of the pre-study, we know that by putting forth this motion and agreeing to have this pre-study now, this matter will go into the fall so that when we come back we will be able to continue our pre-study. There is no timeline such that we have to be done by the end of June. We will be working with our colleagues within the Official Languages Committee.

I’m not sure if I am answering your question.

Senator Gold: Thank you for the question. I hope that, by the end of the day, if the Senate authorizes the pre-study, the committee will be able to start studying this issue and all other issues related to this bill.

[English]

Senator Gagné: Here is my question. In 2019, the Senate began its pre-studies on Bill C-15, the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples Act, and Bill C-91, the Indigenous Languages Act. If I am not mistaken about the order in which the bills were introduced and referred to committee, Bill C-19 was referred to a committee in the other place on February 20, 2019. The committee started hearing witnesses on February 21, 2019, and the Senate agreed to start a pre-study around one week later. There is a good example of when the Senate made a decision on one of the Indigenous language bills that was very important for this country. Could you comment on why the Senate would have decided to conduct a pre-study on that bill but there is no good reason to have a pre‑study on the official languages bill now?

Senator Plett: Thank you, Senator Cormier. You say that a pre-study will help, but you didn’t say why. Why would we not be able to do all of the things you were suggesting in a regular study if the House could ever get their act together and get us the legislation? They haven’t even started committee meetings over there.

I don’t think there is anybody in this chamber who believes that bill is coming to us the way that bill is written today. So we’re going to have a piece of legislation that will come to us different than what it is today.

It is now May 31. If the Official Languages Committee meets on Mondays, you would have a maximum of three Mondays, that is if you could get started and have meetings next week on Monday, which is not really realistic. So there would be two meetings. I cannot see what you can accomplish in those two meetings when you are studying a bill the contents of which you don’t even know.

Aside from the fact that you really want to support this government — I can understand that — but aside from that, why is a pre-study better than a study after we have the bill? What makes it better?

Senator Tannas: I think we can. It comes down to some degree — and I will be frank — of a measure of trust that we do not wind up in a situation where we create the expectation that a pre-study equals that we know everything there is to know, so if we have a quick debate here, we can get this all done before summer.

I know the subtext is all the way through here; and I know Senator Gold has been clear, both in private and in public, that this is not going to be the case. But I think we will add to the heat, because it will become a narrative; it will, potentially, get in the way of the work that will be done; and it will add to the commotion that will potentially carry on in the House. I think that, in a controversial situation like this, we risk getting dragged, along with our reputation, into the game that is going on there, with whatever calculus and score there is.

I think there are many places for pre-study and that it is a good argument to say that this is sufficiently complicated or the timing is such — because of a deadline, a court decision or money — that we need to do it.

I just do not know why, if we say we are going to take all the time necessary — and it has never been directly said that June is off the table. Given the state of play right now, I think we risk signalling that we are in a rush to pass this, and I don’t think that is appropriate.

Senator LaBoucane-Benson: I am glad that you spoke about the complexity of the bill. The question I have for you is this: Do you believe the committees are masters of their own domain and that they will chart out the scope of the study and how many witnesses they hear from? The committee will make the decision as to how broadly the bill will be studied. If that takes us into September, so be it. Once we start the pre-study, the committee is in charge of that.

Senator Moncion: Thank you for the question, and it is an important one. I think people believe that a pre-study is something that will be done right away and that we will approve the bill by the end of June. That is not the purpose of the pre-study.

It is important that people in your province are concerned about issues of a linguistic nature, and the fact that you are hearing them is also important. I understand the loyalty you have towards the people of your province, just as I have loyalty for the people of my province.

It is important to understand that with this pre-study we are not pushing to have this bill passed by June. We want to start our work on specific issues that are very contentious right now. We want to work with our francophone colleagues who represent Canadians from coast to coast to coast in order to find resolutions within what is being provided to have the best bill we can for linguistic minorities in Canada.

This bill has been 50 years in the making. The last bill we had was 50 years ago. It was amended along the way, but what we currently have is not what is needed for minorities in our country, whether in Quebec or outside of Quebec.

Senator Gold: I will refrain from — I appreciate your acknowledging that I have said publicly what I have said, and privately. What I said was that a pre-study is not a Trojan Horse to displace all other stages of study, which it is for the Senate to decide. I have two colleagues whose votes I hope I can count on. I have the responsibility to quote Spider-Man but not the power: With great responsibility comes no power except the power of persuasion and the power of my own integrity and reputation.

I will allow myself to take the liberty of saying that it is very fine to be told, “Of course, we think you are a wonderful person, but the government could always change their mind. And what is to stop it? We haven’t been told this and we haven’t been told that.”

At the risk of revealing more than I wish, it is offensive to me that despite my public and private pronouncements time and again and the respect I have shown for this chamber, we still think it relevant in this debate to trade on the suspicions.

I can’t do anything about it, colleagues, except to tell you that my question is as follows: Can you explain two things? First, why is it that you think we in the Senate — for the reputation which we all extol, and properly so — will be drawn into the political partisanship in the other place? If we choose to not be drawn into the politics, surely we will not be drawn in. If we choose to play the politics, as some do in this place, then c’est la vie.

Secondly, why do you assume that the government — or I should say, more accurately — the parties in the other place will not be responsive —

Hon. Paula Simons: Honourable senators, I think it’s safe to say that there is broad consensus in this chamber that Bill C-11 requires deep and comprehensive study. The question before us is: What is the best way to carry out that study?

This is a complicated bill, replete with competing interests from a wide and diverse range of stakeholders. This is not a question of hearing from people on both sides. What we’re looking at is not a two-sided debate but something like a dodecahedron. The interests of digital-first video creators are not the same as those of established, conventional filmmakers. The interests of young musicians attempting to use YouTube to break into their field are quite different from the interests of giant record labels represented by Music Canada. The interests of Netflix, Prime Video, Apple and Disney are quite different than the interests of Global Television, Rogers or Bell.

This bill splits across many cultural divides. Bill C-11 reads differently whether you’re anglophone or francophone, rural or urban, northern or southern, whether you come from the west or the centre. There is, perhaps, an even greater generational divide — people who watch television versus those who “Netflix and chill” versus those who grew up on Twitch and Discord. The bill fundamentally redefines Canada’s entertainment and information ecosystem and requires rigorous non-partisan, independent, fair-minded review, which the Senate is uniquely equipped to provide.

Is Bill C-11 unconstitutional? Some critics have suggested that it is, though I do not think so. Still, there is no doubt it does engage with important constitutional issues. Is the bill about censorship? No, I think that that is a complete red herring, but it is an extremely ambitious piece of legislation that attempts a radical paradigm shift in the way we consume online culture.

For some, it is problematic and protectionist legislation that does not necessarily fit the way that people today create or consume digital media. Whether you support the bill or not, I hope we can all agree that it needs the sober second thought that the Senate at its best provides. However, it’s difficult to provide sober second thought while the first thought is still happening.

Committee work in the other place just began a week ago, but it is moving extremely quickly. Unlike the parallel bill, Bill C-10, which spent four months in committee, this bill is moving rapidly. Initially, Bill C-10 was subjected to an extraordinary number of amendments — 134 in all — some of them seemingly contradictory amendments that completely rewrote the bill. I don’t think it’s unfair or unreasonable for me to be worried about the timing of all of this. It is possible that if we begin our pre-study before the House has finished its work, we could be wasting our time spinning our wheels because we will have no idea what the bill that finally comes to us will actually look like.

But, actually, given the pace at which the committee in the other place is working, it is also possible that a pre-study will be moot, and we will get the bill so quickly that we will not have time for a pre-study to even begin. More than that, I am concerned that if the bill does come to us in mid-June — and I say this with the greatest of respect for the Government Representative, for whom I have the greatest of respect — I am hearing voices from outside this chamber that suggest to me we could nonetheless be hurried into winding up a final study before we have had time to do our job properly.

I am even more worried about that as of today, as we begin debate on this motion, because of what is happening with Bill C-18. The government imposed time allocation on Bill C-18, and this afternoon, it was sent to committee after second reading. I’m more than a little concerned that we could end up with both bills in front of our committee at once, and Bill C-18, which is a far more radical and problematic bill than Bill C-11, must not be rushed either.

I want to make it plain that I am not interested in dragging my feet or stalling this study for the sake of stalling. I do not have a partisan or ideological game to play. I’m speaking out of common sense. I want to plow ahead. I want to start the study of Bill C-11 as soon as possible. I have been meeting with stakeholders and lobbyists, artists and academics, and lawyers and technical experts for two years now. I cannot wait to get started on a proper study of Bill C-11. This bill is just as momentous for the industries and economies it seeks to regulate as Bill C-69 was for the energy sector, and it deserves mature and measured study.

I deeply appreciate the thrust of Senator Gold’s comments, and I share his frustration at how long it has taken to get the bill to us in the Senate. I am a champion — a passionate, lifelong champion — of Canadian arts and Canadian culture, and indeed, as a sometime playwright and author myself, I have been a small part of the cultural economy. However, I want to clear up a few points of confusion.

Two weeks ago, the Government Representative told us in this chamber that if Bill C-11 were delayed until the fall:

. . . hundreds of millions of dollars targeted for allocation to Canadian content and Canadian creators of content would be lost.

I wish for my colleagues to understand this: There is no way that hundreds of millions of dollars earmarked for the arts sector will be lost if we wait until October to pass this bill. To be clear, that is because Bill C-11 does neither earmarks nor allocates any money for anyone at all. The bill instead allows the CRTC broad new powers to hammer out agreements with various major streaming services and social media platforms. These are individual financial deals that could take years to work out. Once this bill is passed, there will be no immediate change to funding for Canadian film, television and music.

This bill is not a tax bill; it is a regulatory framework. It does not tax anyone. It does not apply any levies. It does not create any new production funds, and it does not transfer or allocate a single penny to anyone. It punts the issue down the field to the CRTC. If and when Bill C-11 is passed, it will be an overture, not a finale. It will allow for complex negotiations with major players in the digital economy, but it will not wave a magic wand to put money into the pockets of Canadian music, film or digital producers.

Delaying the passage of this bill, as Senator Gold has warned us, would be depriving Canadian artists of deserved earned income, but there is nothing in the text of Bill C-11 about remuneration for Canadian artists, creators and copyright holders. That is not the intent of this bill. It is, as I say, a regulatory framework.

Now Bill C-18, which we will be receiving soon, would indeed compel Facebook and Google into binding arbitration and compel them to subsidize online news. There is no similar provision in Bill C-11. Again, the regulatory framework is a necessary first step, perhaps, to a new system of indexing and showcasing Canadian programs to give them more visibility online. But it is not, directly at least, a new way to pay or compensate Canadian writers, directors, composers or performers.

So perhaps — to borrow a metaphor from Senator Tannas — we can take the temperature down a bit. I stand ready to study Bill C-11 as soon as possible. I am not interested in foot-dragging or lollygagging, as my office has a list of possible witnesses prepared. I am eager to hear their testimony and to hear their answers to our questions. And goodness knows, given the persistent misunderstandings around this bill, we need public hearings to educate the public at large and perhaps parliamentarians, too.

I just don’t want us to be pushed to meet an arbitrary, artificial deadline. And I don’t want a quick pre-study to undercut the place of proper analysis and good faith debate that this bill requires. So I’m proud tonight to stand in support of my colleague Senator Dasko and to ask us to give sober second thought to this motion. Thank you very much. Hiy hiy.

[Translation]

Hon. Pamela Wallin: Honourable senators, I, too, would like to join this discussion on the motion to force a pre-study on Bill C-11 — a highly contentious government bill, but not urgent in nature.

So let’s cut to the chase. This pre-study motion intends to ensure the passage of bills that have not been subjected to proper scrutiny or study or debate or anything close to first sober or second sober thought. We have been witnessing this in the other place for the last week, and it is shameful.

Pre-study of any bill is for the convenience, by and large, of government, not for the benefit of the public. In the case of Bill C-11, this legislation remains highly controversial. I have had literally hundreds of emails and exchanges with stakeholders and citizens who have repeatedly tried to make their cases, fact-based cases, but they have been ignored or shut down in the other place.

Government has been shown the fault lines, the evidence that, globally, we are out of step and that their attempts to control the high-tech sector will prove ill-conceived. Even their own officials have publicly contradicted them on user-generated content being subject to censorship. These are not simple commas or adjectives. This is a flawed, not-ready-for-primetime, core content problem, and it impacts fundamental rights.

In his speech on the motion on pre-study on May 18, Senator Gold said, “I just don’t know, nor does anybody else in this chamber,” if this bill will be amended in the House. Agreed. That is the point. Let them do their work, and then we will do ours. This is not a budget or a pandemic spending bill. No lives are hanging in the balance. There is no crisis. And governments can’t always have what they want just because they want it. That’s why we have a system of checks and balances.

Given all the drama that took place in and out of committee in the other place on Bill C-10 last summer — the secret amendments that were invalidated by the Speaker — it was an embarrassment then and we are seeing it again. It was then and it is again now not only a flawed bill but a flawed process.

Of course, the government wants this bill and all of their bills passed quickly and, usually, with as little examination as possible, but that is not what we do here. We have no right to turn a blind eye. Our job is to examine government legislation, fix it, improve it, make it Charter-proof and, all the while, ensure that the rights of Canadians are secured and protected.

As we know, pre-studies don’t allow for amendments. There is no guarantee that regular committee study will, in fact, ever take place when we do get the bills. But this bill, every bill, needs hearings and witnesses and, most importantly, we need some honest debate.

My concern is that by agreeing to ever more pre-emptive pre-studies, we are allowing a new culture to take hold here in the Senate — a culture of complacency, one where the government no longer needs to respect parliamentary procedure or weigh the cost of spent political capital. They no longer need to ensure actual debate or a fair exchange or airing of differing views or win the day with a solid argument with facts, never mind show that they have consulted and actually listened.

I fear that the role of the Senate to uphold the interests of the people we represent will become some quaint, out-of-favour ritual. If all government bills are deemed urgent or essential, then in fact none of them are.

During COVID, we let billions of dollars in spending and new programs slide by without proper scrutiny. We accepted that they were extraordinary times and that time was of the essence, but no longer. This is now a convenient and growing trend. Complicated changes are hidden in budget bills. Debate is curbed. With no ability to introduce amendments, without the guarantee of full committee study and without waiting to see if the bill will be changed in the other place, my concern is that we are truly becoming the thing that offends me to my core: We are becoming a rubber stamp.

The voters passed judgment on this government last fall and, in their wisdom, offered only a minority: a limited hold on power. There was a message from the voters: “We want checks and balances on what you do.” Yet, through a side deal, the government has now engineered a majority. So, given that, we must be, more now than ever, the check and balance in the process.

Our committees are capable of doing great work. We have been waiting to get back to our real work, stymied as we have been by technology, by lack of facilities and translators and by being considered second class when it comes to access to resources. We want the tools and the time to do our work.

The senators on the Transport Committee, of whom I am one — although I have been denied the right to participate because of hybrid scheduling — and all who remain bring a breadth of experience and expertise to any issue. I look forward to a careful examination of Bill C-11. But already under a constrained calendar, with very limited resources, and committees meeting just once a week, this is going to be a tough task.

At the Banking Committee, we have been asked to examine key components of a budget bill and Bill S-6, both of which make sweeping changes to a whole range of important laws in this country. Clearly, we do not have enough time, yet again, to address the increasingly complicated legislation. Changes to the Copyright Act and the Competition Act, which were quietly shoehorned into the budget, need and deserve more time to be carefully considered. But we are no longer afforded that right due to some contrived, I think, politically driven declaration of urgency. This trend is troubling.

Increasingly, government bills receive much less time in committee, and too often we hear from witnesses from the department or the minister, and there is little time for the critics or the concerned or even those who simply want to know why, when and how come.

Is this a fulsome examination of something as complex as a budget or changes to regulatory regimes or a bill that changes how Canadians fundamentally communicate with each other and interact with the internet?

I would like to make one final comment on this process. This debate on the pre-study motion is exactly the kind of healthy dialogue needed in this chamber. Let’s have it. Let’s have it out. Why? Because it is much more difficult to undo bad legislation than to get it right the first time. It clogs our courts and costs taxpayers and consumers unnecessarily.

Colleagues, I think it’s important that we remind ourselves of our unique role, why we exist within not only the parliamentary process but also the political world. As independent as we all believe we are, we must pass judgment on the actions of the government of the day. To believe that this motion for pre-study is somehow purely intended to give the committee more time, a gesture to afford us this luxury, would be naive at best, something I do not believe any of us are.

But I also find it an affront that someone in the other place would believe that this chamber could be tricked by such a transparent proposition.

And claiming that we’re wasting time by debating this motion is an insult to my intelligence and yours and undermines the very commitment when we swore in our oath to do the work necessary and to preserve the rightful reputation of the upper house and of Parliament itself.

So I ask, colleagues, let us not drift complacently into irrelevance. Let us not ignore the political or economic consequences of what we do. Let us not forfeit our very basic right to speak our minds, to fight in the arena of ideas and difference and not be silenced by political correctness or pressure or fear. Let the government do its homework before we do ours. It’s their job. Hash it out. Don’t silence the critics or shut down committees or curb study.

Let’s wait and see what the bill looks like when the fight has been had in the political arena.

Let’s not fall for the procedural games of any government. Please, colleagues, join me in voting against this motion for the sake of the Senate today, for those who will follow us into this chamber and for the oath we took. It is surprising what we may find when we shine a little light on some of the dark corners. Thank you.