Senator Jaffer: Senator Gold, congratulations on an extremely well-thought-out and very difficult speech. Also, congratulations to the minister. As you said in your speech, it is not an easy thing to change politically and in all other ways. I compliment you and the minister. The minister has been very courageous in doing this.

But, senator, you know where I’m coming from and, of course, I support what you said, every single word you said. But to everything you say — that one size does not fit all, that we have to introduce discretion into the justice system, and, as you say, that this is difficult — yes, it’s difficult. I am saying to you not to shoot for the moon. I am saying to you that there are some cases to consider. In my calculation — and we will sort this out in committee — you said 20; I would have said 22, but that doesn’t matter.

The government is making mandatory minimum changes on 20. From what I’ve counted, there are around 73 mandatory minimums, and the judges have held at around 37. My figures may be wrong. I’m not sure — 37 mandatory minimums seem to be unconstitutional.

I say to you that there is now a mishmash out there, 20 and 37, and then there is 73. Would the government look at, in unusual and cruel circumstances, allowing the judge, on mandatory minimums, to have the discretion to not impose mandatory minimums?

Thank you, Senator Gold, once again for an excellent presentation.

Senator Batters: Senator Gold, since you did reference that particular mandatory minimum being used for pepper spray in your speech, could you please get us that number and provide it to this chamber when you have it?

Senator Pate: Senator Gold, would it be possible to provide that information? My last discussions with officials from the Department of Justice indicated that a full 34% of all Charter challenges they are dealing with have to do with mandatory minimum penalties, and they hope that this will have a significant impact but they cannot produce figures to shore up that hope. Would it be possible for you produce those figures for us, please?

Hon. Denise Batters: Senator Gold, in your speech you referenced a one-year mandatory minimum sentence for a prohibited weapon, which, you said, includes pepper spray. Senator Gold, come on. We both know that before that charge even gets to court, police and Crown prosecutors would lay criminal charges appropriately. Such a criminal charge would not probably even be laid if it were not appropriate. But since you used that example, how many criminal convictions have there been in the last five years in Canada for pepper spray where the accused has received a one-year mandatory minimum sentence? I would guess that number might hover somewhere around zero.

Senator Pate: Thank you, Senator Simons, for sparking another question from me. In discussions with the government, it was clear that the primary focus for this legislation was to address mandatory minimum penalties, which was in the 2015 election platform, as you know, as well as in the Calls for Justice of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls and the Calls to Action of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. It has been clearly laid out that this is only a step forward, even though there is a patchwork of mandatory minimum penalties; and, unlike the medical assistance in dying, where our most recent debates were sparked by 1 lower court decision, we have more than 43 court decisions, and counting, that have struck down mandatory minimum penalties.

Would it be too far for me to go to say that it has been brought to my attention that this is likely the only opportunity and there are many people, both within the government and outside, who want to see us push on this piece of legislation to actually help it achieve the aim that the government has ascribed to it?