Senator Cordy: Honourable senators, rule 12-2(3) says:

Except as otherwise provided, once the report is adopted by the Senate, Senators appointed to the standing committees and the standing joint committees shall serve for the duration of the session.

Senator Moncion, this rule was followed when there were just two political parties in the Senate. It has only been very recently that people have suggested that this would not follow, that there would be an exception notwithstanding this rule, and that senators would lose their seats on a committee once they left the group.

Senator Cordy: Certainly.

Senator Cordy: Absolutely, the Senate has changed, and that’s a positive thing. Thank you for bringing that forward. But, as I said in my speech, just because a rule is old doesn’t mean that it is not applicable. This rule is probably worded differently in other areas, but we know that there are senators who have left their groups before what I will call this “notwithstanding” or this motion was brought forward so that people would lose their committee seats when they changed groups. We know — and I don’t want to mention names — that there are senators sitting here in this chamber, whether virtually or in person, who have changed from one group to another and did not lose their committee seats at that time. That was the way it was prior to the past few years, and this was the case prior to bringing in the “notwithstanding” change for a sessional order, that people who switch groups would lose their seats.

Hon. Jane Cordy: Honourable senators, I would like to repeat one of the comments that Senator Mercer made in his speech, and that is that section 12-2(3) of the Rules allows for a more independent Senate. Remember that, because that’s what we’re trying to take away with this report.

Honourable senators, if you have not done so yet, I strongly encourage you to read Senator Mercer’s dissenting opinion included in the report of the Selection Committee. This report lays out the long-standing history of committee portability as a principle of independence since the very beginning of the Senate.

Colleagues, I would like to express how disappointed I am that this issue has come up again, flying in the face of our progress in making the Senate more independent and more equitable. Many of you will know that the last time the notion of portability was brought forward, members of the Progressive Senate Group spoke against that sessional motion. I did at that time as well.

Our colleague Senator Bellemare attempted to amend it. Her amendment proposed a compromise that would have helped to reinforce the equality of all senators, regardless of their affiliation, by only requiring a senator who changes affiliation to vacate a committee chair or deputy chair position, thus maintaining the negotiated committee chair balances.

Honourable senators, the Senate is made up of individuals who have come to this place from across the country to serve Canadians. We do not serve our respective groups. We work within our groups, but we do not serve our respective groups. If anything, honourable senators, groups should serve their members and be a platform for each of us to excel, supported by other like-minded senators.

Senator Bellemare’s amendment at the time was a reasonable compromise, and I am disappointed that we find ourselves here yet again in 2021.

Colleagues, at the Selection Committee meeting last week, we heard a number of arguments against the portability of committee seats, none of which I considered persuasive. Proportionality was the justification that was brought up most often. Let me ask you a question. If a senator were to leave a group and join another, would that not mean the group left behind would be entitled to fewer committee seats than before? And wouldn’t it also mean that the group with increasing membership would be entitled to more committee seats? I would argue that portability is, at the very least, more consistent with the principle of true proportionality, even if the numbers are not as precise as a complete overhaul of all committee allocations.

Like everyone here, I believe proportionality should be taken into account when populating the committees at the beginning of a session. Ultimately, proportionality is only valid on the day the committees are populated. We all know the composition of the Senate can change at any time, just as we all know senators retire and new senators are appointed throughout each parliamentary session. Currently, there are 13 vacancies and four more senators who will reach the mandatory retirement age of 75 before we rise in June. Proportionality holds true when committees are populated, but the balance can quickly change.

The reality of how the composition of this place can change during a session was never more evident than the Forty-second Parliament, which was one continuous four-year session. No one knows what the future will bring.

Even Senator Woo has acknowledged the ever-changing nature of the Senate. In an appearance before the Special Senate Committee on Senate Modernization on April 25, 2018, Senator Woo was asked about the issue of proportionality and the membership of the Standing Senate Committee on Ethics and Conflict of Interest for Senators. He said:

All I’m trying to say here is that if we were to cement the current proportions into that committee in the rules, that would almost certainly be out of skew within a short period of time when the composition of the Senate as a whole changes.

As he said, proportionality quickly becomes out of date. But we do not routinely readjust the committee memberships to reflect those changes, nor do we change or circumvent the Senate Rules to accommodate them.

Another argument brought forward against committee seat portability has been that it is somehow contradictory to the Westminster system. However, as Senator Mercer detailed in his dissenting opinion within this report, the suggestion that committee seats belong to groups is, in fact, a break with practice in other Westminster-style legislatures.

Canada’s House of Commons protects members’ ownership of their committee seats in its Standing Orders. The House of Lords in the United Kingdom, which is the model for the Senate of Canada, and the Australian Senate also appoint committee members for at least the duration of a parliamentary session. Indeed, in the case of the House of Lords, committee seats are, in practice, effectively permanent.

Some have suggested that our old way of doing things is a product of the bicameral system when we only had two parties, the government and the opposition. I would point out that the House of Lords manages to uphold committee portability within its reality of six groups with 25 or more members. The Australian Senate has three groups of nine or more members and does the same. We all know that our own House of Commons accommodates four recognized political parties.

Another argument brought up during the Committee of Selection meeting was to whom do senators “owe their committee seats.” The answer, colleagues, is simple: The Senate. We owe our committee seats to the Senate of Canada.

Everyone who was present on Thursday voted to adopt without amendment the Committee of Selection’s first report to populate committees. Without that vote, our committees would not be currently undertaking their organizational meetings or preparing to study upcoming legislation. Whether by voice or standing vote, whether we engage in debate or not, each and every one of us, honourable senators, plays a role in determining how this place deals with every item that comes before us.

When we debated the sessional motion in the fall of 2020, I was surprised by Senator Woo’s implication that we could ignore the Senate’s role in considering and adopting the Selection Committee’s report because:

. . . the Senate as a whole played zero role in brokering the allocation of seats or in coming up with the precise configuration of committee memberships. . . .

That statement belies a fundamental misunderstanding of the way this place conducts business. Using this logic, one could also argue that the Senate as a whole doesn’t play a role in amendments to legislation made by committees or in adopting a comprehensive report that a committee presents. However, we all know that this is not our approach in the Senate. We debate all of these things. Each and every senator has the right to vote on each and every item that is called. Each and every senator from all sides in the Senate, from every seat in the Senate that’s occupied, considers their choice when making it. Each of us chooses to allow leave on motions, chooses to call the question, chooses how to vote, all of it with an understanding of the item before us, to the best of our abilities.

We are not rubber stamps. No outcome is ever guaranteed. If that were the case, we would not be debating the report from the Selection Committee here today.

To suggest for one moment that what we do here, particularly the process of voting, does not matter to the outcome should be offensive to all of us because we each take our responsibilities seriously, and because, in the end, it is the Senate that appoints senators to serve on committees, not leaders or groups. The groups are simply administrative tools, a way of managing the complexities of populating almost 20 committees with 105 senators. The two ideas, of negotiations and of the Senate’s final vote, can and should easily coexist.

And, honourable senators, they do.

Colleagues, if we are to continue on the road to modernizing the Senate, and if we adhere to the ideal that all senators are independent and equal, we should do so with a view to the future. We are trying to make this place less partisan and to make room for people outside of the government and opposition sides. Some of our current rules, like rule 12-2(3), are already in place specifically to protect the rights of individual senators. Despite the suggestion at committee and in this chamber today, just because a rule is old does not mean that it conflicts with true reform.

Indeed, if you would like to read the fourth report of the Special Committee on the Rules of the Senate, tabled in November 1968 — a long time ago — and led to the principle of committee seats being for the duration of a Parliament — yes, not a session but a Parliament — being formalized for the first time in our rules, I encourage you to do so. That report speaks at length about the independence of senators, including criticism of the appointments process at the time. It includes a suggestion that no senators outside of government and official leadership positions participate in their respective national caucuses.

Honourable senators, I have been asking myself about the motivation behind this motion. Is it really only about proportionality? I’m not convinced it is, by the arguments presented. Or is it solely about preventing senators from being more independent? I truly believe that passing this motion is an erosion of our independence as individual senators. This flies in the face of everything that many of us have been trying to achieve as we move away from the centralized power structure of the partisan political party influences of the past. This motion is a step backwards toward those old ideals of leaderships maintaining control over their members through the threat of losing committee seats if a member makes a personal decision to leave a group that is no longer the best fit for them.

This is not a principle that I can or will support. I do not believe that groups own committee seats; individual senators do.

As Senator Dalphond and I stated in a recent article in The Hill Times, “A more independent Senate should uphold the historical independence of committee members and its committees.”

Honourable senators, for these reasons, I cannot support this report. Thank you.

Senator Cordy: You’re absolutely right. It’s interesting, because I looked at that section and I think it’s something that we should be looking at very closely and examining. I would certainly be open to exploring a need to change this rule. Sometimes what happens, Senator Tannas, is people are taken off a committee for no other reason than they’re tied up with two committees meeting at the same time, which sometimes happens in December and in June. Then the Senate is not sitting; they come back and they discover that they’re still on it.

I think we ran into that, where people were replaced, and then Parliament had been prorogued. They were called back to sit, the person who had taken the place of the original member was still on the committee, and the practice with prorogation was that you couldn’t switch. It had to be the people who sat at the last meeting while Parliament was in session.

So you’ve raised a really good point. I have my notes from when I was looking over rule 12-5, and the comment I jotted down was that I would certainly be open to exploring a change to this rule. I think the Rules Committee should be looking at it because research shows that there are ways to facilitate needed replacements and require the consent of senators.

I haven’t looked at what they do in London in the House of Lords. I haven’t looked at what they do in Australia. I was simply looking at the rule that we have, but I hope that you would be open to it. I certainly would be open to having the Rules Committee examine rule 12-5. Thank you for raising that.

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