Senator Clement: This debate is similar to the one I took part in on Bill C-5, which I voted against. I’ve since been on a journey, and the two amendments I proposed were adopted in committee. If those amendments are included, in particular the one requiring judges to explain that they have considered the issue of Indigenous and Black overrepresentation, I would be able to vote in favour of this bill. That is why I proposed amendments. It’s my job as a senator to improve these laws.

This has been a personal journey for me, and that is why I proposed the amendments. I want to try and improve the situation.

Senator McCallum: I worked extensively with organizations, even before I became a senator. I have worked with the Native Women’s Association of Canada, or NWAC, with the National Association of Friendship Centres and other groups, and they have been great allies and advocates. I have asked groups of women in the past week — healing groups — if CAP has advocated for them, and each group said no. I have never worked with CAP in the 30 years that I have worked with Indigenous people.

Can you tell me why you say that because NWAC is there, CAP should be there, when NWAC has done such great work? Thank you.

Senator McCallum: I’m not a regular member of the Indigenous Peoples Committee. I didn’t receive any mail. I did go out and ask those representing missing and murdered women. They said they come to our meetings, but they haven’t done anything. I have gone to Sixties Scoop; they don’t represent them. I have asked people in Manitoba, “What do you know about CAP?” and I have not heard anything.

Maybe other members received information, but I didn’t. I did talk with two of the administrators, and they’ve never provided information to me. Thank you.

Senator Klyne: Senator Gold, I appreciate that you’ve highlighted some of the importance of this. The federal underfunding of Indigenous housing has negatively affected many generations in many ways. Failure to fulfill treaty rights and failure to keep promises only lead to Indigenous nations unnecessarily having to beg and litigate.

Given the House of Commons Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee’s projections, is the government planning on increasing investments, implementing additional programs aimed at providing on-reserve housing in order to deliver on this promise to Indigenous communities?

Senator Forest: It is all about representation. If I understand correctly, the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples, which is a very good organization that does a lot of work to promote the cause of Indigenous people, is not necessarily an elected organization.

What your amendment is proposing is to formally reserve a seat on the council for the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples. Why that organization and not some other national organization? Would it not be appropriate for us to instead set out criteria for selecting an organization? People may or may not be members of the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples. If I were an Indigenous person who was not a member of that organization, I might not feel as though it could speak on my behalf.

I have a problem with arbitrarily granting this organization a seat on the council.

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Senator Clement: Thank you for your question. I repeat: It really comes down to the fact that there is no evidence that this type of bill will be effective in protecting people. I didn’t think there was enough evidence to prove that this legislation would work the way it is supposed to work. I am repeating myself, but I’m telling you that I didn’t hear any such evidence. The evidence I heard is that Indigenous people are overrepresented in prisons. We heard that during the debates on Bill C-5 and again this time. I would say that I saw far more evidence on one side than the other. To me, there is consistency in all this.

The issue of Indigenous women is really very pertinent, because they sometimes suffer violence that is truly remarkable and difficult. They find themselves in situations where they are the ones convicted following a dispute. This situation primarily affects Indigenous women, and we heard evidence to that effect. I think it’s a matter of evidence. I understand your point of view and your work with victims. I too represented victims in my career as a lawyer. However, in this case, I have to be guided by the evidence presented in committee. Personally, I didn’t see any. I saw a continuum of laws designed to respond to a difficult situation in communities, but these laws are ineffective, and we don’t have the evidence to show that they could be effective.

Hon. Marty Klyne: Senator Gold, the government has pledged to close the infrastructure gap in Indigenous communities by 2030. However, the House of Commons Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee has warned in its June 2022 report that at the current pace of investments, this target will not be met when it comes to housing.

Can you please elaborate on how the Department of Indigenous Services Canada measures the existing gap, and when we will see the promised estimate of First Nations’ infrastructure needs? Will this estimate be included as part of the investment package in the upcoming Fall Economic Statement?

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): Thank you for these important questions, senator. There is indeed a significant infrastructure gap between Indigenous and non-Indigenous communities in Canada. Infrastructure investments are a key element of the government’s commitment to foster the growth of safe, healthy and prosperous Indigenous communities and to support the participation in our economy of Indigenous communities and their businesses.

Let me note that since April 2016 and as of June 30, 2023, $9.92 billion in targeted funds has been invested towards 9,457 projects that will benefit Indigenous communities. I have been assured that Indigenous Services Canada will continue to work directly with First Nations, First Nations organizations and other federal organizations to identify what further measures and investments may be required to close this infrastructure gap by 2030.

Hon. Mary Coyle: Thank you very much to my colleague and fellow member of the Indigenous Peoples Committee, a committee that has worked so hard. I know you’ve worked very hard. This was not an easy bill for any of us, on so many levels and in so many ways. I thank everybody for their work.

Senator Martin, when we had our second reading of this bill, I asked a question about differentiating between rights holding, membership-based national organizations, let’s call them oranges, and others that are peaches, pears or plums. You had a hard time answering that question. But this issue keeps coming up again and again. That is, this claim of 800,000 and some odd members of CAP and claiming that pretty much everybody who doesn’t live in a First Nations land-based community as their own.

At our committee, I did not speak against CAP. I have nothing against CAP. I know they provide good services to people. But what I spoke against was us, as senators — and at that point as a committee — making the choice that CAP should be at that table when I personally felt that decision should be made by those initial Indigenous leaders who would see the value of which other organizations should be at that table.

My question for you is this: Do you agree that the membership be on those three rights-holding organizations and the one national Indigenous women’s organization so that any other seats there should, frankly, be ones that are discussed and decided upon by those four as opposed to by us?

Hon. Denise Batters: Thank you, Senator Martin. Following Senator Brazeau’s speech about this matter, I asked him about its history, since he was someone who had previously been the head of the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples, or CAP. There are generally five recognized national organizations of Indigenous people, and Senator Brazeau mentioned that the government helped create them. Four are included in this bill. At one point while it was in the House of Commons, it included the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples as well, but CAP was later removed.

Do the government’s criteria consider all five of them, in the many things that the government is dealing with, to be proper national organizations for Indigenous people? If so, is this bill a bit of an outlier in that it does not include the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples?

Hon. Andrew Cardozo: Honourable senators, I will make a very short statement. This is a complex issue and I’ve listened to it quite carefully. At the end of the day, I want to follow the principle of “nothing about us without us.” I therefore take my lead from my Indigenous colleagues in the chamber and feel it’s my duty and responsibility to be an ally, especially when they’ve explained the issue as well as they have.

The suggestion that Senator Audette made to discuss the issue further or look into it further at another point is a useful compromise so that we’re not completely ignoring the request by CAP — the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples — to be part of the council. Thank you.

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