The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Honourable senators, I wish to draw your attention to the presence in the gallery of Carolyn Winter. She is the guest of the Honourable Senator Dean.

On behalf of all honourable senators, I welcome you to the Senate of Canada.

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Honourable senators, I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the Special Report of the Auditor General of Canada, pursuant to the Auditor General Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. A-17, sbs. 8(2).

[English]

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Honourable senators, when shall this bill be read the third time?

(On motion of Senator Downe, bill placed on the Orders of the Day for third reading at the next sitting of the Senate.)

[Translation]

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Honourable senators, when shall this report be taken into consideration?

(On motion of Senator Cotter, report placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting of the Senate.)

[English]

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Senator Gold has the floor.

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Honourable senators, I am, after consulting the Speaker, ready to rule on the question of privilege raised by Senator McCallum on October 19, concerning government motion 132.

Senator McCallum referred to rule 13-4 in her question of privilege, but I would note that there is a specific provision dealing with notices given during Routine Proceedings. Rule 4-11(2) states that:

A Senator may raise a question of privilege relating to:

(a)a notice given during Routine Proceedings only at the time the order is first called for consideration.

This point only rarely comes up, but it is the provision that must be taken into account when dealing with questions of privilege concerning items on notice. In the particular case we are dealing with, the result is the same, and the issue was raised at the proper time, but this need not always be the case.

In terms of the substance of the issue, we are guided by the four criteria set out in rule 13-2(1) when considering a question of privilege. All the criteria must be met.

The first criterion is that the matter must be raised at the earliest opportunity. Senator McCallum raised her concerns as soon as possible after notice was given, so this requirement has been met.

The second and third criteria require that a question of privilege “directly concern the privileges of the Senate, any of its committees or any Senator”, and that it “be raised to correct a grave and serious breach”. When considering these criteria, we must consider the fact that privilege exists to allow us to fulfil our duties as senators. This point has been made in various rulings, including those of May 23, 2013; February 24, 2016; March 22, 2018; and October 29, 2020. The Speaker has noted “… that the privileges and rights exercised by the Senate itself take precedence over those of individual senators”. The rights and privileges of an individual senator can therefore be restricted by the Senate.

Perhaps the most fundamental right of the Senate is control over its internal affairs, including its Rules and how proceedings are conducted. The Senate itself adopted its Rules, and the Senate can vary from them as it sees fit. This is what we regularly do by deciding to only sit on Mondays or Fridays when necessary, and by adopting sessional orders concerning the 4 p.m. adjournment on Wednesdays.

Senator Gold’s motion proposes another such variation. It would change the normal time of adjournment on Thursdays. Adopting this motion would be an exercise by the Senate of its fundamental right to regulate its proceedings.

In terms of the fourth criterion — that there must be no alternate parliamentary process reasonably available to pursuing a question of privilege — the issues raised are most appropriately dealt with in debate on the motion itself. Senators may indeed have concerns, as Senator McCallum expressed, that such a proposal could unduly restrict opportunities to debate non‑government business. While this motion was the result of discussions between the leaders and facilitators, every senator can now enter into debate, argue for or against the proposal, and vote for or against it. Amendments can be moved. Only if the motion is accepted by the Senate itself — exercising its fundamental right to govern its proceedings — does the proposal become binding.

There is, therefore, no question of privilege, and debate can continue.

On the Order:

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Gold, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator LaBoucane-Benson:

That, for the remainder of the current session and notwithstanding any provision of the Rules, when the Senate sits on a Thursday, it stand adjourned at the later of 6 p.m. or the end of Government Business, as if that time were, for all purposes, the ordinary time of adjournment provided for in rule 3-4.

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Is leave granted, honourable senators?

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Are senators ready for the question?

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Honourable senators, we have 33 seconds left. Senator Bellemare, if you would like to answer questions, you will have to ask for five more minutes.

[Translation]

Senator Bellemare, would you like to ask for five more minutes?

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: No extension is granted, and your time has expired.

(On motion of Senator Martin, debate adjourned.)

On the Order:

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Deacon (Nova Scotia), seconded by the Honourable Senator Smith:

That the Senate call on the Government of Canada to replace its outdated program delivery and information technology systems by urgently accelerating the implementation of user-friendly, digital solutions that transform the public service delivery experience of Canadians, and ultimately reduce the cost of program delivery.