Senator Cardozo: Yes.

Hon. Leo Housakos: Would Senator Cardozo be kind enough to take a question?

Senator Cardozo: Thank you, senator, for your question. I would have felt ignored had you not asked a question of me, so I thank you very much.

Indeed, the question you raise is important. I am not using the word “narrowcasting.” I’m using the word “broadcasting.” I think what this bill does is provide more revenue for the creation of Quebec content — of Canadian content — to go across the world. I think this bill is doing exactly what you’d like to see it doing. Certainly, it will provide more revenue that comes from all Canadians for Canadian content and for Quebec content as we want more Canada to go across the world.

Hon. Percy E. Downe: Honourable senators, I would like to congratulate Senator Cardozo on his excellent maiden speech. It’s nice to have that personal milestone behind you, and your speech today was a reflection of your experience not only as a historian but as a former CRTC commissioner. You bring great value to this debate, given your background. Thank you for your speech.

Colleagues, I have an amendment today, which is an attempt to improve Bill C-11 by addressing some of the shortcomings in the Broadcasting Act. For example, the CBC in Prince Edward Island is an essential service that needs to be fully funded and supported, and my amendment will assist to that end. My amendment will also both improve the broadcaster and hold the CBC accountable for cancelling, at the very beginning of the pandemic in March 2020, the CBC TV news in Prince Edward Island.

As you will remember, at the beginning of the pandemic, there was a lack of understanding of COVID — how it was spread and how to protect yourself and your loved ones. In P.E.I., a province with the highest percentage of senior population in the country and one of the worst internet connections, the local CBC TV news program — the only locally produced TV newscast in the province — was an essential service that, on a whim, was cancelled by CBC Toronto management. This was in direct violation of the conditions of their broadcasting licence, when not only did they not give advance notice but they also failed to justify their decision at public hearings. None of this was done, even though it was required by their licence. As well, we found out after the fact that the CRTC had no way to hold CBC accountable for their decisions.

If this ever happens again, the purpose of my amendment is to impose a fine of $2 million per day on the CBC, payable to a local library in the affected community.

Colleagues, as you know, the Senate has three main priorities, one of which is representing the regions of Canada. Thus, the Senate is uniquely qualified to correct this problem by passing this amendment and ensuring that Canadians, regardless of where they live, can expect the same level of service from their national broadcaster. The importance of this amendment to Prince Edward Islanders is reflected in the fact that the other senator from Prince Edward Island, Senator Brian Francis, is seconding this amendment.

The second part of my amendment relates to CBC staff. The Broadcasting Act grants the CBC the right to pay its employees at such rate as the board of directors deems fit. As a taxpayer‑funded public broadcaster, the CBC has a greater obligation than private broadcasters to be open about how it spends money, such as pay for its senior management and on-air personnel. The CBC provides some information about what compensation it pays, but very little and only in the most general terms. Contrast this with the level of transparency provided by the British Broadcasting Corporation. For years, the BBC, like the CBC, resisted any disclosure of salaries, using similar justifications about the competitive environment in which they operate. But since 2017, the BBC has been forced to release the names and salaries of its highest paid on-air talent. Currently, they provide the employee’s name, the program they appear on and the individual’s salary to within £5,000.

By contrast, the CBC merely provides an average salary for all employees within a $50,000 range. So, for example, while we know that Nick Robinson earns between £295,000 and £300,000 to host the BBC “Today” show, we only know that five CBC presenters earn over $300,000, with an average salary of $342,000, but we have no idea as to their names, programs or gender.

This comparison to the BBC is important, and I am not the first to make it. Nine years ago, the Senate Transport and Communications Committee undertook a study of the CBC. In the course of that study, the committee looked at compensation for senior CBC personnel. For the benefit of those senators who were not here then, to say the committee was not impressed by the level of cooperation and transparency on the part of the CBC would be an understatement. When the CBC released salary estimates so low as to be unbelievable, the then chair of the Senate Transport Committee said:

Based on the document, we concluded that Peter Mansbridge makes $88,000. Everyone knows that’s not true. Don’t insult me, as a member of the Senate, as the chair of a committee, by giving me false information.

He went on:

We want a pay scale that shows how much the top earners make. We have that for most public collective agreements and publicly traded corporations. . . . It’s hard to get information from CBC about operations. If I want to find out what any given BBC employee earns, all I have to do is go on the website and the information is there.

He continued:

. . . as my colleagues have said, taxpayers know how much the President of Canada Post makes . . . .

They know what I make as a senator, what an MP or a minister makes, but we can’t get that kind of pay scale from CBC. . . .

This desire for transparency, and disappointment at the CBC’s lack of such transparency, was a view echoed by other members of the Senate Transport Committee, and was reflected in the committee’s report, which recommended that:

CBC/Radio-Canada be more transparent in its operations, specifically with regard to the disclosure of financial information, procurement and contracts, and salaries; and it must make such disclosures easily accessible to the public.

Colleagues, none of that has been done, but this amendment will correct that oversight.

I wish to emphasize that this call for transparency does not arise from simple curiosity. After the BBC was forced to publish the salaries of those earning more than £150,000, it revealed a massive gender gap. I cannot claim the same gender gap exists within the CBC, but nor can I say it does not exist. Without more information from the broadcaster, we simply cannot know.

Frankly, Canadians should know what they are paying the top‑tier employees of a publicly funded organization, if only to ensure they are being paid fairly. There were many stories from the BBC about female on-air personalities being rushed into an office and given an instant raise before the public information of salaries was released. Of course, they found out they were underpaid for a number of years.

I am seeking a level of transparency that the CBC correctly demands of other government departments and Crown organizations and which should also apply to them. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. This amendment follows the request of the Senate Transport Committee.

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Senator Cardozo, we have just over one minute left. Do you want to take a question?