44th Parl. 1st Sess.
March 7, 2023 10:00AM
Madam Speaker, certainly from the Conservative side and from the NDP, it seems like we are on the same page when it comes to looking at privacy, protecting privacy and stating that privacy should be a fundamental right, not only in the preamble but also in the clause statement. The clause statement is very important because that is what the bill is derived from. The definition of privacy and fundamental rights then goes throughout the rest of Bill C-27.
One example that came out this week was of our children using a game called Fortnite. There are a lot of other games children spend a lot of time on sometimes, but Fortnite was found to be in breach of error in the U.S. for exploiting our children, taking their data and selling that. Can the member please answer for me how important it is not only to protect our adult fundamental right to freedom, but also our children's fundamental right to freedom?
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Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question, because it is really important. I am not saying that just because I have teenagers at home. We also see the dangers of social media and the fact that young people's privacy or personal information can be exploited. In that regard, once again, Bill C‑27 does not go far enough.
Bill C‑27 includes an interpretation clause stating that the personal information of minors is considered to be sensitive information. However, in the current bill, there is no definition or explicit direction as to what constitutes sensitive information. Once again, the work is only half done. What exactly does “sensitive information” mean when we are talking about information on a minor, someone under 18 years of age?
We will have to move amendments to make this much clearer.
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Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague from Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie for his speech. This is not a subject I know very well, but I am making progress.
I would like to remind everyone, however, that Canada is a digital wild west. There was no legislation that interfered with the commercial interests of these organizations.
In essence, Bill C‑27 is a response to European legislation. Without Bill C‑27, Canada would likely not be meeting the European Union's expectations. The financial community is applying pressure because it is under stress.
My question is going to cast a much wider net. What does my colleague think about the complacency of successive Canadian governments? I am talking about complacency in all sorts of other areas too, including transportation safety, cybersecurity and the environment. What does my colleague think about that?
The Canadian government is always forced to take action when it is pressured by the financial community or other countries.
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Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague from Repentigny for her question, which gives me an opportunity to talk about the laissez-faire approach that has been taken. There were years of neo-liberalism where private corporations reigned. The government let them do pretty much whatever they wanted. I think that the progressive forces and the left, in general, always need to be there to push our governments to do more to have more regulatory frameworks to keep people safe, for example.
Today, we are talking about the security of personal data, but we could also talk about rail safety. Think about Lac-Mégantic. The railway companies are inspecting themselves, to see if they meet the standards. I do not think it is responsible for a government or a society to allow these big corporations to supervise themselves, to do their own inspections and then to say that they did everything right, when they tend to cut corners to make a profit.
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Madam Speaker, I wonder if the member could provide his thoughts in regard to his critique of the legislation, when he said that there are many things missing.
A number of the things the member refers to could easily be done through regulation. The legislation sets in place a very substantial framework, which is there to protect the privacy of Canadians, and a number of things that have been raised already this morning could be done through regulation. In fact, many would argue they might be best done in regulation.
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Madam Speaker, when we hear that certain things can be done through regulation, that calls for a bit of a leap of faith. The bill needs to have clear guidelines and provide specific direction so that the regulations can then be coherent and consistent. It is not good enough to say that things will be done correctly later through regulation.
For instance, the current Bill C‑27 contains no guarantee that when someone asks for their data to be destroyed, it will actually be destroyed and stay that way for any length of time. We will have to work on this to ensure that the regulations really do help Canadians.
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Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise to speak to Bill C-27 today. As I put forward to my friend in the form of a question, when we think of Bill C-27, I like to think that the government is on the right track in continuing to protect the privacy of Canadians in many different ways. Yesterday we had a debate on Bill C-26 on cybersecurity.
If we take a holistic look at what the government has been able to accomplish through legislation and, ultimately, in certain areas in terms of developing the industry through budgetary measures, Canada is indeed in a very good position in comparison to our peer countries around the world. I do not say that lightly, because I know that all members are very concerned about the issue of privacy. That is in good part why we have the legislation today.
The last time these changes we are proposing happened was two decades ago. Let us reflect on that time of 20 years ago. We did not have iPhones, and Facebook did not exist. Going back a little further than that to when I was first elected, when one clicked into the Internet, the first thing one heard was a buzzing sound, the dial tone and then clicking. Then one was magically connected to the world. How far we have advanced in a relatively short period of time. Last week, I was on the Internet making a purchase that would be delivered. I never had to go to the store. It involved my doing a little bit of design work on the computer before making the purchase. I was told yesterday that it was delivered to my home.
The amount of information out there is absolutely incredible, and it is very hard to imagine the types of data and the risk factors out there. That is why it is so important that, as a government, we bring forward substantive legislation that is going to protect the privacy of Canadians, to ensure companies are held accountable and, in the context of yesterday's debate, to protect them from security threats that are very strong and very viable. It was interesting yesterday listening to the debate for a number of hours.
I get the sense that a wide spectrum of support is shaping up today. The NDP is supporting the legislation. My understanding is that the Conservatives are supporting the legislation. The Bloc, in principle, is supporting the legislation. The Province of Quebec has actually made some significant gains on this whole front, so I am not surprised that the Bloc or members from Quebec within the Liberal caucus are very strong about these issues, whether they are cybersecurity issues or the privacy issues of Bill C-27 that we are debating today.
I raise this because I believe that it does not matter what side of the House one happens to sit on, as this is legislation worth supporting. As I indicated, it has been 20 years since we have seen substantial changes to the legislation. The expectation is very high that we will not only introduce the legislation but that, with the cooperation of members opposite, we will see it pass through in a timely fashion.
Being an optimist, I would like to see the bill pass before the summer, and it is possible. I realize that it would require a great deal of co-operation from opposition parties, but I do believe it is doable, especially after the comments I heard this morning.
The legislation is not meant to address every matter that Canadians are having to face in the digital world. That is not what it is designed for. As I indicated, the legislation, whether this one or Bill C-26, goes a long way in establishing a solid base for a framework that would enable the government of the day, which is held accountable by the opposition, to have the opportunity to do a lot of work in an area where we need to see a higher sense of security and protection.
One member across the way asked about engagement. There has been a great deal of engagement. I can assure the member that, whether it is from a constituency perspective, a ministerial perspective or, I would even suggest, the member would have to take some credit in terms of an opposition perspective, there has been a great deal of dialogue. This is not a new issue. This issue has been in the making for years now.
There have been some factors that are beyond the government's control in terms of the manner in which it can bring forward legislation, for example the worldwide pandemic and the requirement for substantial legislation in order to support Canadians and have their backs. There were issues of that nature, along with numerous other pieces of legislation. I would not want to give a false impression that this is not an important issue for the Government of Canada.
At the end of the day, based on comments I have heard on both Bill C-26 and Bill C-27, I believe the legislation would establish a solid footing or framework, whatever terminology we might want to use, and, at the very least, we should see it go to committee. The principles of the legislation are in fact endorsed and supported by all sides of the House, from what I can tell, and please correct me if I am wrong. No doubt we will have other legislation that might be somewhat more controversial, where there is real opposition to the legislation, and this would enable more time for debate on that type of legislation.
If we could somehow recognize the value of this legislation, given that there is so much support for its principles, we would allow it to go to committee, where members of Parliament are afforded the opportunity to get into the nuts and bolts, the details, where there is representation from different stakeholders at committee to express their thoughts and opinions on the legislation, and where members can find out directly from the minister what kind of consultation has taken place. The member does not to have to take my word for it, but I can assure him that there has been a great deal of consultation. He would be able to hear that first-hand from departmental officials, the minister and so forth.
I believe the government has done its work in bringing the legislation to the point where it is today. We have seen ministers, in their opening remarks and in their response to questions, in co-operation with opposition members. The government has demonstrated very clearly in the past that it is open to amendments that can improve upon legislation for the benefit of Canadians, and if there are ways we can improve this legislation, we will accept those types of amendments. We will support those types of amendments. I believe this is one of the areas where the Prime Minister has been very good in sending that message. It could be because of years in opposition, when the opposition never had amendments accepted by former prime minister Stephen Harper.
At the end of the day, if there are ways to do it, we can improve upon this bill. I heard yesterday on Bill C-26, and already today on Bill C-27, that members have genuine concerns. I do not question those concerns, but I do believe that it would be helpful if they can look at those concerns. If they already have ideas that they believe will improve the legislation, nothing prevents members of the opposition or government members from being able to provide those amendments or thoughts in advance to the ministry, which would potentially allow for a deeper look into it to see if, in fact, something is doable.
The NDP talked, for example, about digital rights for Canadians. There is a great deal of concern that we need to ensure and recognize them, whether they are consumer rights or privacy rights. These are things we all hold very close to our hearts. We all want to make sure the interests of Canadians are being served.
When I took a look at the specifics of the legislation, I highlighted three parts I wanted to make reference to. CPPA would strengthen privacy enforcement and oversight in a manner that is similar to that of certain provinces and some of Canada's foreign trading partners. It is important that we do not just look internally. There are jurisdictions, whether nations or provincial entities, that have already done some fine work in this area. We do not have to reinvent the wheel, and working with or looking at other forms of legislation that are there is a very positive thing. In particular, the CPPA would do so by granting the Privacy Commissioner of Canada order-making powers that can compel organizations to stop certain improper activities or uses of personal information and order organizations to preserve information relevant to an OPC investigation.
This is significant. We need to think in terms of the technology that I make reference to. I can remember a number of years back when a pizza store was becoming computerized. As someone called in and made an order, they recorded the telephone number, the name and the address, personal information such as that. I remember talking to the franchise owner, whom I happen to know quite well, explaining how the collection of data, if used appropriately, can not only complement the business, but also complement the consumer, and this was maybe 20 years ago.
We can contrast that to an iPhone and looking at some of those applications we see. The one that comes to mind is a true Canadian application and a true Canadian franchise: Tim Hortons. My wife never followed hockey, but nowadays she does because of Tim Hortons. One can win free cups of coffee by picking who is going to score goals or get assists. I am not exactly sure how it works, but Tim Hortons comes up with a program that is actually collecting data from people. It is a program that allows it to send out all kinds of notifications. It could be sales of product. It could be something like NHL standings. It really engages the consumers. An incredible amount of data is actually being collected.
Tim Hortons is not alone. One can go to virtually all the major franchises and find the same thing. It is not just the private sector. Yesterday we were talking about cybersecurity, and one can easily understand and appreciate the sensitivity of collecting information, even if one is a Tim Hortons or a Home Depot, but also many government agencies. For example, there is the amount of personal information Manitoba Health has, which is all computerized. There are also doctors' offices. The digital world, in a very real and tangible way, has changed to such a degree that many, including myself, would argue that things like Internet access have become an absolute and essential service nowadays. It is something we all require.
The incredible growth of data banks, both in the private sector and in the government, and I would throw in the non-profits and the many other groups that collect data, has been substantive in the last 15 or 20 years. That is the reason why today we have the type of legislation we have before us. Bill C-27 would ensure that we have something in place to provide consequences for offences. To give members a sense of those consequences, the new law would enable administrative monetary penalties for serious contraventions of the law, subject to a maximum penalty of 3% or $10 million of an organization's global revenue, whichever is greater, and fines of up to 5% of revenues or $25 million, whichever is greater, for the most serious offences.
I said I wanted to highlight three things, so I will move on to the second point. The personal information and data protection tribunal act would establish a new tribunal, which would be responsible for determining whether to assign administrative monetary penalties that are recommended by the Privacy Commissioner following investigations, determining the amount of penalties and hearing appeals of the Privacy Commissioner's orders and decisions. The tribunal would provide for access to justice and contribute to further development of privacy expertise by providing expeditious reviews of the Privacy Commissioner's orders.
The third point is that the AIDA would impose a duty to act responsibly by requiring organizations designing, developing, deploying or operating high-impact artificial intelligence technologies to put in place measures to proactively mitigate risks of harm and bias in the development of these technologies.
I have less than a minute left to talk, and I have not even touched on the AI file. I made reference at the very beginning to the financial investments of this government in encouraging the growth of that industry in the different regions of our country. The Government of Canada is not only bringing in the type of securities that are absolutely important for Canadians from a privacy perspective, to encourage continual growth in the area and have these protections in place, but also doing so through budgetary measures to ensure that we continue to enhance the opportunities of Canadians. If we take a look at the digital world today, it is very hard to imagine where it is going to be tomorrow, at least for myself, in witnessing the growth of the digital world over the last 20 or 30 years and how far it has gone.
This legislation is a modernization. It is legislation we can all get behind and support. I would encourage members, no matter what party they are from, to support it. Let us see it go to committee, where the committee can do its fine work and see if we can even improve—
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- Mar/7/23 10:57:07 a.m.
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Questions and comments, the hon. member for Saskatoon West.
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Madam Speaker, certainly this is important legislation and it is quite needed in our country to get a handle on the protection of people's privacy and, as the member was just speaking about, artificial intelligence.
One question I have for the member relates to the area of regulations. There is so much in this legislation that is dependent upon future regulations that would be written. I am just wondering why those regulations were not presented with this legislation and, failing that, when we can expect to see the regulations. So much of what is being talked about here really depends on how it is implemented through the regulations.
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Madam Speaker, that is one of the reasons it is important, once the bill gets to committee, that members have the opportunity to get a better sense of the types of regulations that would be put into place to support the legislation.
There is another way of looking at it. When we have legislation such as that which is being presented and going into committee, members on all sides of the House have the opportunity to be able to express their thoughts and concerns with respect to the legislation even before regulations have been drafted. I would not want to give the impression to the member opposite that we have a pile of regulations and the moment that the legislation passes these regulations would be put into place. I suspect that there is a lot of fine tuning going on.
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Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for his speech. He appears to have extensive knowledge of almost every issue.
The protection of personal information is a shared jurisdiction in Canada. Bill C-27 should therefore not apply in provinces that have protections as stringent as those included in the bill.
The legislation passed by the Quebec National Assembly, in February 2021 I believe, is strong legislation. Can my colleague reassure us that Quebec businesses are indeed excluded from the federal legislation?
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The bill is aligned closely with approaches in other jurisdictions, both in Canada and internationally. The CPPA does not apply in jurisdictions where the provincial law is deemed substantially similar, which is likely to include provinces like Quebec.
It is important to recognize that the national government does have, which this legislation clearly shows, a responsibility and we are living up to that responsibility. That is one of the reasons we need to look at the regulations, as I made reference to in the previous question. However, I do not believe that there would be the overlap that would cause issues in Quebec or B.C. or any other jurisdiction.
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Madam Speaker, the hon. member spoke at length about administrative tribunals being a way in which people can access justice as it relates to their appeals processes and so on, but yet, this is in direct contradiction to the Office of the Privacy Commissioner, who is clearly opposed to the creation of a new personal information and data protection tribunal, citing it would be unnecessary to achieve greater accountability and fairness and counterproductive in achieving quick and effective remedies. In fact, the OPCC states that adding a new level of appeals delays would delay resolutions of cases, especially when the power to impose monetary penalties is limited to the tribunal.
I wonder if the hon. member could comment on how the OPCC argues that the system proposed under Bill C-11 encourages organizations to use the appeals process rather than to seek common ground with the OPCC when it is about to render an unfavourable decision.
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Madam Speaker, sometimes one needs to agree to disagree. I look at the tribunal as something that is to the benefit of Canadians. It is an opportunity to ultimately seek fairer justice. At the end of the day, I suspect and hope that it will ultimately prevail. Perhaps there are ways in which the member can enhance or put in something that might deal with his concerns, if not directly then indirectly, but it is important that we keep the tribunal.
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Madam Speaker, this is long overdue. The current privacy laws were drafted 20 years back when iPhone and Facebook were not in existence. Advanced technologies like artificial intelligence are ever evolving. They are almost getting changed on an everyday basis. Does the member agree with defining things like artificial intelligence in the legislation and casting it in the legislation so that it becomes inflexible; or would it instead be better that we have regulations which would be more flexible, that would allow the ministers and the government of the day to make changes as may be required, as and when the technologies advance?
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Madam Speaker, I think that the hon. member's overall assessment of the situation, when it comes to AI, is accurate. That is one of the reasons why, whether it was in the question that I had put forward a little bit earlier this morning or in my statement, the rapid change that we are seeing in the digital world is going to continue to be greatly enhanced through AI.
I think that having what we have proposed within the legislation and allowing for regulation is by far the best way to go.
I do not live in fear of AI. I think that AI is going to improve the quality of life for Canadians and people around the world.
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Madam Speaker, I believe I heard the member for Winnipeg North say in his presentation that the Conservatives were supporting the bill. That is incorrect. We are opposing the bill, not that we oppose the modernization. It is needed, but this bill is inadequate.
There are many reasons but the primary reason is that it does not put personal privacy interests above those of business interests. In the “purpose” section of clause 5 in the bill, it says that, basically, they are of equal weight.
Further on, in subclause 18(3), the bill says that a legitimate interest of a business, determined by a business, is a reason that a business can use one's data without one's permission, in a way that they did not get permission for.
That is one of the fundamental flaws in the bill, in terms of the idea that personal information, mine or anyone's, is mine and should be paramount and superior to that of the business. The business is there just to serve my interest, not of equal value.
I would like the hon. member to comment on that.
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Madam Speaker, that is why I was reflecting on Bill C-26. If we look at the debate that took place yesterday on cybersecurity, dealing with the digital world, at the end of the day, Conservative member after member was standing up saying that, yes, they were going to support the bill but that they had a lot of problems with the legislation, and that the principle of Bill C-26 is something that they support.
I kind of made a leap, and apparently the wrong leap, by seeing the Conservatives, in principle, support the privacy of Canadians and the legislation that will give an enhanced privacy legislation. I guess I should not have made that particular leap.
Inconsistency from the Conservative caucus is fairly well known. I will try my best not to make that sort of mistake going forward.
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Madam Speaker, my colleague has shown that he is quite open to the possibility of amending the bill.
Amending a bill and passing it is not something that is done lightly. I do not need to tell anyone that. Issues must be studied in depth, which most parliamentarians do not do when the issue is artificial intelligence. We must also make comparisons with international standards so that we can draw inspiration from best practices.
Does the government intend to allow parliamentarians to study the bill in detail, or will it silence them with time allocation given the urgency we sense in their tone and their desire to pass the legislation?
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Madam Speaker, I said, at the very beginning of my comments, how wonderful it would be if, somehow, we could pass this bill before summer comes. I suspect that was maybe a little optimistic. Hopefully we can do it before the end of the year.
The government needs to get a sense of co-operation from at least one opposition party and we are hopeful that there will be more.
It would be nice to have that unanimous type of consent moving forward. I would have thought that the principles of the legislation should at least allow us to get it to the committee stage, where the member herself makes reference to how there are some possible changes and it is important that the government be open to ideas.
That is why I said that if there are specific ideas—
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