44th Parl. 1st Sess.
December 1, 2022 10:00AM
Mr. Speaker, I have so many questions.
We agree on the principle of the bill, but I do have to wonder about the precautionary principle. Since 2017, the Chinese government has required Chinese companies to hand over any information they collect to its intelligence service. Despite this, the federal government continues to award contracts to Chinese companies like Nuctech, for example.
That was a very important contract, I might add. Nuctech was being asked to install x-ray machines in embassies, precisely where our information must be protected. Information from the embassy could have easily been passed on.
My question for my colleague is this. We currently have an interesting bill before us, although it needs improvement. Should the precautionary principle not be applied more systematically, along with the recommendations made by the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates in its June 2021 report?
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Mr. Speaker, the member's question is quite a technical one. The member does mention China and what it has done. I am deeply concerned about Chinese state-sponsored actors who are conducting espionage and looking to steal data and very important national security information from various government departments and individual citizens. That is the reason that all of our Five Eyes allies, with Canada being last, banned Huawei from our 5G infrastructure, because of any possible back-door element.
Because, with all companies that are owned by China, there is, to put it bluntly, an ability for them to direct, for example, Huawei to take all their information. That is why Five Eyes allies, put quite simply, called on Huawei to be banned. They did that before us, and we took a very long time.
I will look more into the specifics. The member was not too familiar with what she talking about. Suffice it to say, the Conservative Party of Canada has been very clear: We need to be very clear-eyed on China, in particular when crafting this bill. It needs to be crafted in a way that offers the most defence for Canadian critical infrastructure against Chinese sponsors, state actors or others.
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Mr. Speaker, there is a lot to think about in what the member for Kildonan—St. Paul had to say, and I agree with many things she said, including her concern about the oversharing of Canadians' personal information between government departments. I know that was a significant issue in the 41st Parliament with Bill C-51, when the government of the day introduced security legislation at that time.
I wonder if the Conservative Party today is in a mood to actually protect Canadians against the oversharing of information between government departments and if we might try to find an opportunity in the course of this bill's passage through the House to correct, as we go, some of the defects in that legislation from many years ago.
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Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the question from my colleague, who is also from Winnipeg and a fellow Manitoban.
I take the member's point regarding former pieces of legislation that need work. The leader of the official opposition, the member for Carleton, has been very clear in his desire to protect data and the rights of Canadians, especially if we are looking at Bill C-11, which is the Liberal government's attempt to control and regulate the Internet, so to speak. He put forward the very first, very public and very well executed defence of Bill C-11, so I would say that the capability for data sharing between departments and between ministers, which is a large part of this bill, raises a lot of significant privacy concerns of the data of individual Canadians.
We have been very clear that our intentions with this bill and others are to protect those freedoms and that privacy of Canadians. Therefore, that will be the underlying theme of our approach, certainly to this bill during the committee process and in the days and weeks to come.
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Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague for Kildonan—St. Paul for taking part in the Manitoba debate that is going on here.
The member commented on SMEs, noting that half of them had no defence and were the most vulnerable. As with the bill I was able to get through last year on SMEs and small businesses, it is very important they have the abilities and rights to protect themselves on this as well. In response to the last question, the member also talked about transparency, which is so important.
Could the member expand on those two areas?
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Mr. Speaker, I am enjoying this Manitoba debate. There are a couple of things I would say.
The government, in the last budget of 2021-22, announced about $700 million for cybersecurity. It seems that it is all going to the Communications Security Establishment, which, as I mentioned in my speech, is the government's sort of cybersecurity agency under the Minister of National Defence. It is great. We do need more resources at the government level for CSE. However, I asked the minister if any of that funding was being provided for our small and medium-sized enterprises so they could boost their cybersecurity. The minister never did get a response to my email.
Again, when we are looking at small companies, it is easy for Telus, big banks and others to afford some of these things. However, if we are looking at small telecom providers, like a small Internet provider in northern B.C., the cost to meet the red tape in the bill might put them out of business. Why not take a little of that funding the government has announced and provide it to our SMEs to help them get to the level we need them to be to protect our critical infrastructure? Perhaps we can get a bit creative and look at our tax system to see if there is some sort of capital expense tax write-off or something we can provide our SMEs to help them get there, because we really need to, as I made the case in my remarks, as I am sure others will as well.
I have not heard a response to that. The government is spending the money anyway. It is spending more money than any government in history. Why not provide a little of that to our SMEs to ensure that critical infrastructure is up to par?
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Mr. Speaker, we are talking about cybersecurity. This means that there is a lot of foreign interference conducted through cyber-attacks.
Speaking of foreign interference, is my colleague not concerned that, in 2016, after giving a Chinese bank a business licence, the Prime Minister received $70,000 in donations to his riding of Papineau within 48 hours? Is that not interference? In 48 hours, he received donations from outside his riding, specifically from Toronto and British Columbia. Is that not evidence of foreign interference?
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Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the investigative work done by the Bloc Québécois on this issue.
We are just learning about the details of this. I am very concerned about the allegations being made, as everyone should be if there is proven to be a connection and it is proven to be true. We are monitoring this quite closely.
I imagine the Parliamentary press gallery and other media sources across the country are digging into this very quickly and as closely, as they should. It is something we are closely monitoring as we learn the details of any possible payoff to the Prime Minister from the Chinese government or other actors from China.
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Mr. Speaker, an interesting debate is under way thus far on such an important issue with which we all have to come to grips. As changes in technology take place, we have to take that into consideration. I suspect that legislation dealing with privacy or cyber-attacks will be ongoing. Once the bill goes to committee, I am sure there will be a great deal of dialogue. I anticipate a great diversity of witnesses will come forward with ideas on the legislation.
I will pick up on the point I raised with the member opposite about the concern that the minister had too much power under this legislation. Often, when government brings forward legislation, opposition members bring forward concerns about how power is enhanced through the minister's office.
I have had the opportunity to briefly go through the legislation and I genuinely believe there is the right amount of balance. That is why I posed the question for the member. She suggested of reporting mechanisms, whether through an annual report or a report to a standing committee, and that has merit. I say that because I know there has been a great deal of effort in formulating this legislation. If there are ideas that would enhance or make the it that much stronger, we should be looking at that. I do believe the ministry is open to that.
When the member was quoting, I wondered where those quotes were from. She used those to amplify fears that one might be challenged to justify. For example, the member referred to an “evil government” based on quotes she had received. I am not saying it is her opinion, but she has raised it, saying this is a quote from some third-party organization and if we believe in that quote, it could lead to an evil government. We have witnessed that a great deal from the Conservative opposition on a variety of different issues, as if there is some sort of conspiracy. There is no conspiracy, contrary to what the member said, at least in one part of her speech. The government is not out to spy on Canadians.
The government takes the issue of the privacy of Canadians very seriously. We have brought forward legislation to that effect. This government has spent tens of millions of dollars on cyber threats. The government has had working groups and advisory groups dealing with cyber threats. We recognize the changes in technology and the impact they have had on society. I have said in the past that if we were to look at technological advancements, we would be challenged to find an area that has been as advanced as computer Internet technology. Just the other day, I was speaking to a private member's bill, saying that 10 or 20 years ago there were no such things as iPhones.
I note the member for Winnipeg South Centre is listening. He will recall that when we were first elected back in 1988, there was a big computer purchase of $5,000 made through Reg Alcock. We had a wonderful computer with a laser printer, which came with a keyboard and a mouse. At the time, when logging into the Internet with that wonderful and beautiful computer, the first thing we would hear was a dial tone. Then we would hear that stupid clicking sound, which meant we were actually connected to the Internet. We were all fairly impressed with that computer, and there were about 20 of us at the time.
We can compare that to where we are today. People can buy a laptop for $500 that has abilities and technological advancements more than tenfold of what we paid $5,000 for, with that long dial-up connection. In fact, people can purchase something brand new for $250 that is hooked into the Internet and running at a rapid speed. It is not even comparable to what it was.
There is so much advantage to technological change, but with that change comes risk, which is the essence of what we are debating through Bill C-26. Even though society has benefited immensely, we need to recognize there is a significant risk factor. That risk factor not only applies for the individual who might be surfing the net today, but it also applies to military operations taking place in Ukraine today.
Computers today are not optional. The Internet is not optional. They are essential services. That is why the Prime Minister, or one of the other ministers, just the other day made reference to the percentage of Canadians who were hooked up with high-speed connections and how we had literally invested billions to ensure that Canadians continued to get that access, with a special focus on rural Canada. We recognize that because it is no longer optional; it is an essential service.
The digital economy varies significantly. If we want to get a sense of this, we can turn to Hollywood and like-minded productions found on Netflix, CBC or the more traditional media outlets. We can look at some of the movies and TV shows out there. The other day I was watching an episode of a show called The Blacklist, which is all about cyber-attacks. I suspect a number of my colleagues might be familiar with that show.
One member talked about hydro. Manitoba, in fact all of Canada, should be concerned about our utilities. Through Hollywood productions, we are better able to envision the potential harm of cyber-attacks. A well focused cyber-attack can deny electricity to communities. It can shut down things that should never be shut down.
We talk about the sense of urgency. One would expect there will be mischievous lone individuals working in their basements, or wherever it might be in society, challenging systems. However, we also have state-sponsored cyber-attacks, and we should all be concerned about that.
In fact, that is why it was comforting when the minister made reference to the Five Eyes. I caught on right away that there are like-minded nations. Canada is not alone. There are like-minded nations that understand the importance of cyber-attacks and the potential damage that can be caused.
I will get back to the international side of things later, but when we think of what is at risk, think of digital data. Digital data comes in many different forms. One of the greatest collectors of data is Statistics Canada, an organization that invests a great deal in computers and technology to protect the data it collects from Canadians. Statistics Canada is actually respected around the world for its systems. It has absolutely critical data, and that data is provided to a wide spectrum of stakeholders, obviously including the national government.
Let us think of health organizations, the provinces and the collection of health records, or motor vehicle branches and passport offices. All of these government agencies have, at the very least, huge footprints in data collection.
Those are government agencies. We could also talk about our banking industries or financial industries. We can think of those industries and the information that is collected from a financial perspective when people put in an application for a loan. All of the information they have to provide to the lender, such as their history, is going into a data bank.
There is also the private sector. The other day we were talking about apps. One example is Tim Hortons. We were talking about it, as members might recall. The Tim Hortons app is fairly widely downloaded, and there is a lot of critical information within it. Canadians need to know, whether it is a government agency or private agency, that governments at all levels, in particular the national government, have their backs. That is the reason I started off by giving a very clear indication that even though Bill C-26 is before us today, we have been investing substantial financial resources through other types of legislation to provide assurances to Canadians so they know their information is in fact being protected.
There are actions on the Internet today related to our small businesses. The member opposite made reference to this and asked how the government is supporting small businesses. If a person has a small business today, chances are they are on the net. More and more consumers turn to the net for widgets and a multitude of different services.
As a result of that, there has been a great demand on small businesses. That is why we have a Minister of Small Business who looks at ways to not only provide tax relief but provide support. Sometimes it is done directly through financial measures and sometimes it is done indirectly by providing resources. However, let there be no doubt that there is support coming from the government. Whether it be a small, medium or large business, the government has a vested interest. We will do what we can. A good example of that is the individual who uses an ATM card when they make a small or large purchase at a small business.
The attacks we are talking about today can take many different forms. The digital economic side is definitely one of them, but there is also a social component to the Internet. When I think of the social component, I think about issues of privacy and of communications through, for example, social media. Again, Canadians have an expectation that the government is going to be there for them. Cyber-attacks take place in areas we all need to be concerned about. As I said, the more advanced we become, the more risk there is.
There are a lot of things that take place on the net that we need to be aware of and take action on. The exploitation of children is an example. That needs to be taken into consideration.
In the legislation, there is a very strong compliance component. As I raised, the minister would have the authority to make some things happen with our telecommunications companies and tell them to stop. I think that sort of action is necessary at times.
There is also a financial component so we can ensure a penalty is put in place as an incentive for people to abide by the legislation and the regulations, which are all there for one purpose and one purpose alone: to protect Canadians and institutions from risk. That is why we are investing in cybersecurity, ensuring respect for the privacy of Canadians and supporting responsible innovation.
We will continue to protect Canadians from cyber-threats in an increasingly digital world. This legislation is one aspect of what the government is doing to accomplish that. I believe that state-sponsored cyber-threats are one of the greatest concerns and one of the reasons we need to work with allied countries. I made reference to the Five Eyes. There are democratic, free, allied countries that recognize the potential harm of cyber-threats sponsored through governments. This legislation really sinks its teeth into that.
I hope that all members will get behind this legislation so we can ultimately see its passage to the committee stage. An official opposition member has indicated there is a great deal of interest in reviewing the legislation, the idea being to come up with ways to ultimately make the legislation better.
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Mr. Speaker, I am frustrated with this bill given the fact that it does not lay out a lot of specifics. It states that there is a problem, and I think we all agree with that, but the government's solution to that problem is to hand the minister a lot of power so the minister can do amazing things. Is the member not concerned that the bill does not have the details we need to prevent some of the very things he was talking about?
I think about Ski-Doos and Bombardier, which is an iconic Canadian company. It has been the victim of one of these targeted cyber-attacks. I do not think there is anything in the bill that would have prevented that or held the people who perpetrated it to account.
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Mr. Speaker, I do not necessarily know the details of the case the member has referenced, but what I can say is that even the Conservative critic acknowledged that certain aspects of the legislation would ensure there are financial penalties and opportunities for the minister to virtually stop an action from taking place. Am I concerned that there is overreach? I do not personally believe there is, but I think there is some merit in having that discussion at the committee stage.
I posed a question to the member: If the concern is that there is too much power for the minister, what would the Conservatives do differently? I recognize the fact that in a cyber-attack, often it is necessary to take fairly strong action in an immediate fashion. I think all members recognize that fact. The issue is whether there is something the Conservatives would like to see to provide an additional sense of security.
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Mr. Speaker, I thank our colleague for his speech, which was a real voyage of discovery. One moment we were in Hollywood, and the next we were at Tim Hortons.
I will do him one better. I will take us on a journey across the Pacific all the way from China to the riding of Papineau. I worry about interference, as does our colleague, I am sure, because he supports a cybersecurity bill to reduce digital vulnerability.
Is my colleague concerned about the fact that, within the same time period, the federal Liberal association for the Prime Minister's riding of Papineau received donations from China and a Chinese bank got permission to set up shop in Canada?
I have a second question. Does the member believe in chance and coincidence?
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Mr. Speaker, I think Bloc members are hanging around the Conservatives too much. It is usually the Conservatives who go under all the rocks and have conspiracy theories.
I, for one, see the legislation for what it is. It is an attempt by the government to ensure that we can effectively deal with the threat of cyber-activities, whether they are state-sponsored or from individuals. That is a very strong positive and is absolutely not unique, as other countries around the world are doing likewise in bringing forward legislation of this nature.
In terms of the member's conspiracy theory, I will leave that for another member on another day.
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Mr. Speaker, I think we all agree that Canada is ill-prepared to deal with cybersecurity threats. I am comforted to hear that we are all on the same page. However, we are falling far behind other similar jurisdictions, such as France and the U.K. Their ability to intercept and respond to cybersecurity threats is much more enhanced to protect their countries.
Again, we are glad to see this moving forward, but I am a bit concerned about the government granting ministers so much broad power, especially the Minister of Public Safety and the Minister of Industry. I just want an assurance for Canadians that these powers would not be applied unjustly to them. Also, would the member and his party be willing to work with the NDP to bring forward amendments at committee to make sure there are protections for everyday Canadians?
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Mr. Speaker, I suspect there would be a great deal of will to continue working with the New Democrats in the House in a minority situation. The NDP has taken a very responsible approach to dealing with the government-sponsored legislation. Where there are changes that make sense, I suspect the ministry would be open to how we could address concerns.
Having said that, it does not mean we are looking for NDP amendments. As it has been pointed out, whether it is the official opposition or the Bloc, this is legislation that we brought in today at second reading. We hope it will pass at some point so it can go to committee stage, where I expect there will be a great deal of interest from coast to coast to coast on this legislation.
I look forward to the contributions of others and their ideas and thoughts going into it, like the member for Kildonan—St. Paul had regarding an annual report that comes from the minister and how that might be incorporated into the legislation. The sooner we can make the ministry aware of some of those ideas, the better it is.
Ultimately, it will go to committee, and there will be representatives from the minister's office there. It will be a wonderful opportunity to get the feedback we are all looking for. If there are chances to make it a healthier and stronger legislation, I am sure the government would act on that.
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Mr. Speaker, that is twice now that my colleague has accused me of subscribing to conspiracy theories. With all due respect, I would ask that he withdraw his remarks.
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- Dec/1/22 11:47:33 a.m.
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The hon. member for Saint‑Hyacinthe—Bagot on a point of order.
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Mr. Speaker, I will withdraw the comment.
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- Dec/1/22 11:47:57 a.m.
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I understand the member for Saint‑Hyacinthe—Bagot's request.
The hon. parliamentary secretary.
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Mr. Speaker, 85% of Canada's critical infrastructure is owned by the private sector, provinces and non-governmental agencies.
Does my colleague think Bill C-26 will help standardize cybersecurity practices to better protect systems and services pertinent to Canada's cybersecurity?
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