44th Parl. 1st Sess.
December 1, 2022 10:00AM
Mr. Speaker, I just have a couple of quick points.
First, I would correct the minister. He referred to it as Bill C-21 a couple of times earlier in his speech. I think that maybe it is on his mind. He knows that there are great changes that need to be made or scrapped out of that bill.
As for the references he talked about in his speech, to Huawei and 5G, obviously the government finally decided to ban Huawei from our 5G network just in May.
Why did it take the government so long? It was tabled here. A motion was passed in the House a year and a half prior to its making that decision.
I am just interested to know why it took the government so long to make such a critical national security decision.
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Mr. Speaker, I embrace the urgency of my hon. colleague's question. I also want to thank him for the legislative title correction. Obviously, I am managing a number of priorities, as he well knows.
There is no dispute that we need to advance this debate and to do so thoughtfully and deliberately and urgently. As he will know, we took very decisive action against the risks posed by Huawei and ZTE as they relate to 5G, 4G and 3G networks, and we are going to continue to be vigilant about them.
If he shares that sense of urgency in moving forward, he really ought to study the bill along with his colleagues in the Conservative Party and support it.
At the end of the day, this bill would address those gaps and potential vulnerabilities so that we can manage the risks and, at the same time, leverage the innovative opportunities that lie in wait when it comes to technology.
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Mr. Speaker, the member's question is quite a technical one. The member does mention China and what it has done. I am deeply concerned about Chinese state-sponsored actors who are conducting espionage and looking to steal data and very important national security information from various government departments and individual citizens. That is the reason that all of our Five Eyes allies, with Canada being last, banned Huawei from our 5G infrastructure, because of any possible back-door element.
Because, with all companies that are owned by China, there is, to put it bluntly, an ability for them to direct, for example, Huawei to take all their information. That is why Five Eyes allies, put quite simply, called on Huawei to be banned. They did that before us, and we took a very long time.
I will look more into the specifics. The member was not too familiar with what she talking about. Suffice it to say, the Conservative Party of Canada has been very clear: We need to be very clear-eyed on China, in particular when crafting this bill. It needs to be crafted in a way that offers the most defence for Canadian critical infrastructure against Chinese sponsors, state actors or others.
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Madam Speaker, clause 2 of the bill would enable the government to issue orders to force users of telecommunications services to use products or services that do not come from certain providers, including Huawei.
Does that mean that a person who has already bought a Huawei cellphone, because that is a product, will not be able to use it anymore and will have to buy a new phone much sooner than they expected?
What is more, since decisions will be made by order, does that mean that, under this bill, the government will be using orders to govern in this area instead of going through parliamentarians?
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Madam Speaker, the member is correct that this is not a new issue. That is precisely why I think the government is very late in coming to the table. The issue of foreign interference, which is part of the context of the cyber-threats we face, is also not a new issue. Again, we have been calling for action from the government, but we have not seen other action from it. The member says that the Liberals have done all these other things, such as maybe giving some money over here or over there, but he evidently could not articulate specific measures that the government had taken.
We are behind when it comes to defending our security. We are behind what we should have known much earlier. We are behind our allies. We were the last of the Five Eyes and very late to step up on recognizing the risks associated with Huawei.
When it comes to foreign interference, I will challenge the government on one point: Why has the government not expelled foreign diplomats involved in interference and intimidation in Canada? That would be a simple step and the government has not taken it.
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Madam Speaker, I have no problem clarifying. Several of the places I went into were following provincial orders, to be clear, and they were to record who showed up and whether or not they were vaccinated. That is what was done, and that is against PIPA and PIPEDA.
I will turn to the government's record on protecting us in terms of cybersecurity, and talk about Huawei.
In 2018, our Five Eyes partners were concerned about Huawei's connection to the Chinese communist government, and they were not going to allow Huawei into their networks. However, the Canadian government delayed a decision for four years. The Liberals waited until 2022 to ban Huawei. Why did they do that? It was so Bell and TELUS could implement Huawei technology, 4G technology, across the country. That is hardly a protection from a cybersecurity point of view, and it again speaks to why Canadians have lost trust in the government.
However, I will support the bill to go to committee. I have said that we need to do something for cybersecurity, and I have outlined what I think we need to do. I do not think we can leave these huge gaps that have been cited by numerous institutions.
The University of Toronto has written letters to the government, talking about what is wrong with the bill and what it would like to see. If members have not seen the report it did with the Munk School, called “Cybersecurity Will Not Thrive in Darkness”, there are a number of recommendations in the report that talk about what needs to be done to Bill C-26 to fix it. I would encourage the government to look at that, and I would expect it to become the substance of amendments that would be brought at committee.
Also, we should look at what the constitutional and civil liberties lawyers are saying. They are very concerned about the parts of the bill that would surveil Canadians, so I think we need to make sure we listen to what they have to say. They have written an open letter to the government, and I would recommend that the government take a look at that as well.
Finally, on accountability, due process and public regulation, there is potential for abuse. I would encourage the government to take a look.
I look forward to more discussion at committee.
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Madam Speaker, cybersecurity cannot be underestimated in its importance, especially in the world in which we live.
One of the concerns that has been highlighted to me, as I listened to security experts surrounding this issue, is how far behind Canada is in taking action on cybersecurity, whether that be the decision regarding Huawei, or how Canada lags behind its Five Eyes partners. Taking action is essential in ensuring that we are on the same playing field.
I am wondering if the member from the government would be willing to expand as to why, after years of being in government, this is only now being debated in the House of Commons.
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Madam Speaker, I heard the member talk about Huawei quite a bit. I could not help but reflect on the fact that the former contender to the current leader of the Conservative Party was actually on the legal team to support Huawei through its initiative to try to get onto the 5G network in Canada. I cannot help but wonder why on earth, if the Conservatives are so against Huawei and treat this threat so seriously, the Conservative Party of Canada would green-light—
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Madam Speaker, Jean Charest was a lawyer for Huawei. The member brought up Huawei. Jean Charest is a well-known Conservative who ran in the leadership. Why would they have allowed Jean Charest to run in the leadership had that been the case?
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Madam Speaker, I want to congratulate my colleague from Lac-Saint-Louis on his speech. He obviously has an excellent grasp of the file.
I put this question to another colleague earlier, after a speech, and it is something that really concerns me. I am asking it again because I do not know if the member was here earlier.
We cannot begin to imagine how organized hackers are. They have such a big head start that it will be hard to catch up to them, even if we invest all the energy and knowledge we can in our systems to protect ourselves against cyber-attacks. We have seen companies like Desjardins and Bombardier fall victim to these hackers, who demand endless ransoms. How many other companies have fallen victim to these attacks without us even hearing about it?
My question is this. Has Canada been too slow to act? It took Canada a long time to decide Huawei's fate, for example. Does the fact that the government seems to have dragged its feet before finally tabling a cybersecurity plan that appears to have some teeth not mean that we will always be one step behind those countries and organizations that are attacking the computer systems of businesses and governments around the world?
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Madam Speaker, I know that the Huawei case has been studied extensively with the involvement of our security agencies. I would like to think that the government and security agencies have learned a great deal. They have learned lessons that they can apply in the future to better protect Canadian businesses and critical infrastructure.
In terms of catching up, yes, technology moves so fast that often governments and society have to react, but it is better to react than to do nothing.
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Thank you, Madam Speaker. I see that they are no more interested in what you have to say than what I was saying, so I do not take it personally.
The 5G network is a new communications technology with bandwidth that is 10 to 100 times greater than that of current networks. The technology stands out for more than just its speed. It stands out for its extremely low latency, which is the time it takes for one computer to communicate with another and receive a response.
This opens the door to many possibilities in different areas, but to achieve performance, 5G uses a multitude of pathways. To simplify, let us say that something that is sent from Montreal to a computer in Paris could have a portion pass through New York, another through London, another through Barcelona, and so forth. This makes the technology particularly vulnerable because it becomes difficult to track the path that the data takes.
Huawei has already been implicated in the scandal involving China spying on the African Union headquarters. In 2012, China offered the African Union a fully equipped ultramodern building. Africa is known to be an extremely important location for Chinese investment. China supplied everything: networks, computers and telecommunications systems. After a few years of operation, in 2017, African computer scientists realized that the servers were sending out huge amounts of data at night, when nobody was working in the building. They discovered that the data was going to servers in China, which was spying on all staff and political leaders. Huawei was the main supplier of the network infrastructure. Microphones were also found in the walls and tables.
China passed a new national intelligence law in 2017. One thing is clearly set out in their law. All Chinese companies must absolutely participate in China's intelligence efforts. It is a form of economic and commercial patriotism, and we could also add digital. In other words, all the private players are being mobilized to say that they are going to participate in the construction of the great digital wall of China. This includes military intelligence and civilian intelligence. For instance, a company can be called upon to spy on behalf of another Chinese company in order to place China in an advantageous position on the world stage.
At this very moment, a genomics company called BGI, which works with genes, is still supplying medical equipment to Canadian hospitals. Its machines collect data, and only the company's technicians are authorized to carry out the monthly maintenance. They are the only ones with access. It turns out that this company has close ties to the Chinese military.
There is also Alibaba, a publicly traded Chinese company similar to Amazon that was founded by businessman Jack Ma. It derives its income from online activities, including a public market designed to facilitate transactions between businesses, payment and retail sales platforms, a shopping search engine and cloud computing services.
Another example is Tencent, a company founded in 1998 that specializes in Internet and mobility services and online advertising. Tencent's services include social networks, web portals, e-commerce and multiplayer online games. Tencent manages and operates well-known services, such as messaging services Tencent QQ and WeChat, and the qq.com web portal.
Today, China is the champion of data collection. This rising power requires new practices, new barriers and new ways of doing things. We should not think that the U.S. does not have their own giants that collect data, but just in China there are 800 million Internet users. That is more than the U.S. and India put together and one-quarter of all Internet users in the world. This number of users will give public and private Chinese actors, which have a close relationship, access to large sources of data that they can mine at will.
China has built a formidable digital system. There is a reason why it is constantly increasing its data storage. There is no doubt that the issue of cybersecurity is at the centre of the current international economic war that is engulfing an increasingly multipolar world. We need to acknowledge this. We need to act.
We support this bill because it is well-intentioned, but we have to find a way to put some meat on the bones.
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