44th Parl. 1st Sess.
March 30, 2022 02:00PM
- Mar/30/22 4:04:04 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-5
Mr. Speaker, obviously, it is a profound disappointment that the government is now moving time allocation on what is effectively a very substantive justice bill repealing, for example, mandatory minimums. Effectively, what it is doing is giving criminals a get-out-of -jail-free card at a cost to victims.
I want to point out, too, that we have dealt with this issue since December of 2021 with only four days of debate on this substantive bill. I also want to point out that I am sure the left hand will be holding the left hand on this one. In the agreement between the NDP and the Liberals, it says that both parties agree that parliamentary debate is essential and they will identify the priority of bills to expedite them through the House of Commons, including expediting sitting hours to allow for additional speakers, so I do not quite understand why they are not allowing for additional speakers on this bill, especially as it is something so substantive.
My question to the Minister of Justice is this. There has been an increase in gun crimes and domestic violence in this country since this bill was introduced. Why is the NDP-Liberal government proposing time allocation? Why is it putting the rights of criminals ahead of the rights of victims?
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- Mar/30/22 4:05:27 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-5
Mr. Speaker, this is an important bill. I agree with the hon. member that this is a substantive criminal justice reform bill that would effectively reverse a series of policies that frankly did not work, and that are being abandoned everywhere around the world, particularly in the United States, which served as an inspiration for the previous Conservative government to bring in these kinds of minimum mandatory penalties.
I was in Washington last week and met with a number of bipartisan groups and think tanks working on criminal law reform. The basic message from all of them was that incarceration does not work. We need to shorten incarceration periods and minimum mandatory penalties, and the kind of flexibility that conditional sentence orders offer is precisely the kind of reform that they are suggesting, and that we are suggesting. Even states such as Louisiana have abandoned minimum mandatory penalties, because they simply do not work.
The idea that this is in some way soft on crime or does not protect victims is completely false, for a number of reasons that I would be able to elaborate upon.
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- Mar/30/22 4:09:50 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-5
Mr. Speaker, indeed, in the previous Parliament with this bill's predecessor, Bill C-22, and now in this Parliament, we have had ample opportunities to discuss this bill. We are still waiting for the opposition to show the evidence.
Today, the Parliamentary Budget Officer came out with a report looking at one of the minimum mandatory penalties that was thrown out by the Supreme Court of Canada. The clear conclusion of the Parliamentary Budget Officer was that not only did it contribute to the overrepresentation of Black and indigenous peoples in the criminal justice system, and not only did it cost more money, but it was completely ineffective at reducing the overall sentencing rates.
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- Mar/30/22 4:10:44 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-5
Mr. Speaker, I want to take the Minister of Justice back to 2019 when we had a round table in Scarborough with a number of different stakeholders who were directly impacted by mandatory minimum sentences, particularly members of the Black community. We know that the statistics are quite relevant here because MMPs have disproportionately impacted members of the Black community, as well as indigenous communities.
Can the minister give us a sense of how the changes to MMPs in Bill C-5 would ensure that fair justice is administered when it comes to racialized and indigenous people, as well as talk about conditional sentencing orders and what kind of impact those would have on sentencing?
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- Mar/30/22 4:11:37 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-5
Mr. Speaker, indeed, I remember that round table very well.
This is precisely the reason why we brought forward this bill: to combat overrepresentation of Black and indigenous peoples in the criminal justice system. What MMPs do on crimes that do not threaten the safety and security of our society, but on fairly minor crimes or mistakes, is tie the hands of judges and restrict them from fashioning appropriate orders. The possibility now of having a conditional sentence order, which the previous Harper government rejected, would allow judges to fashion a sentence, often in the community. The community can help to rehabilitate people. If it is an indigenous community, they can use restorative justice. It allows them to fashion a sentence that actually works, that serves victims and that serves the community, instead of what we have now.
A study from Professor Kaiser-Derrick, published by the University of Manitoba Press, highlighted the vastly disproportionate and negative impact that minimum mandatory sentences and a lack of conditional sentence orders had on indigenous women. It is an endemic problem and it is a shame in this country, and we are attacking it.
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- Mar/30/22 4:15:27 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-5
Mr. Speaker, the hon. member and I worked a great deal together, and continue to work a great deal together, on these kinds of issues.
What the bill would do is allow for context to be taken into account. I will give an example. In a ruling, the Supreme Court of Canada has allowed a sentencing judge to take into account factors, for an indigenous person, of how that person's life might have helped to account for the crime and what ought to be taken into account for the sentence. This was the so-called Gladue report.
A minimum mandatory penalty means the judge's hands are tied, with respect to it. With this bill, the judge would be able to look at, first of all, not having a minimum mandatory penalty, but also being able to fashion, using a conditional sentence order, the kind of appropriate treatment that a person might need. Whether it is a health issue or a social welfare issue, people could get the support they need. That better serves the community, it better serves the victim and it certainly costs us less money in the criminal justice system.
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- Mar/30/22 4:19:17 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-5
Mr. Speaker, I come from a riding where Donald Marshall Jr. once lived. Donald Marshall Jr. is famous for showing that there is systemic racism within the justice system. Far too often we see indigenous people overrepresented in jails.
I am wondering if the Minister of Justice could speak a bit about his efforts to ensure that we are taking the steps and measures needed to ensure that systemic discrimination within the justice system is removed and that indigenous people get a fair chance at justice within Canada. I am wondering if the Minister of Justice could comment on that.
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- Mar/30/22 4:19:56 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-5
Mr. Speaker, I share the hon. member's concern for making the criminal justice system better and for decreasing the systemic overrepresentation and, quite frankly, the systemic racism against Black and indigenous people in the criminal justice system.
This bill is a first step, allowing more flexibility for sentencing judges through conditional sentence orders, removing minimum mandatory penalties and creating a bias toward diverting people from the criminal justice system for simple possession offences. However, it is only a first step. We have invested, as a government, in better Gladue reports and better coverage for Gladue reports. We have begun a pilot project in Nova Scotia, Toronto and British Columbia on impact of race and culture assessments for Black offenders. We are working on funding community justice centres and indigenous community justice centres so we can provide wraparound support, better serving victims and offenders so that we reduce recidivism and provide a more holistic response to criminal justice.
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Mr. Speaker, we are still studying that bill. Certainly the sentiment behind it is one that speaks well of the hon. member and of all people who would like to attack the opioid crisis and other problematic drug abuse situations in our country.
This current bill is not meant to do that. It is meant to address flexibility in sentencing to reduce the overrepresentation of Black and indigenous people in the criminal justice system. The fundamental challenges that are being attacked by the private member's bill on the other side are wider than that, and I will look at the bill, as will all of my colleagues, with due diligence.
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- Mar/30/22 4:26:10 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-5
Mr. Speaker, I found it very interesting that when the minister was giving the last answer and he said that judges would have the opportunity to go to the maximum, a heckle came from across the way from the member for Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, who said that they will never do it. Nothing underscores more their distrust in the justice system than what the member heckled during the answer. That is the truth. That is what this comes down to.
My question for the minister is more simple than that. Nothing could divide the Conservatives and the Liberals more than when it comes to issues like this. The Liberals believe in using the correctional system to rehabilitate and reintegrate people into society—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh!
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- Mar/30/22 4:30:02 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-5
Mr. Speaker, I obviously do not share the member's skepticism in the criminal justice system and I do not share his skepticism over improving the criminal justice system based on evidence. What we have done in this bill is selected roughly 20 minimum mandatory penalties that have a demonstrated impact on the overrepresentation of Black and indigenous people and other racialized Canadians in the criminal justice system. That is the goal here.
It is a goal that is necessary. It helps us identify systemic racism within the system. It helps us achieve better outcomes for communities and victims, but also for offenders in terms of their rehabilitation. It also helps bring the justice back to the justice system. That is what we are doing here. I hope we succeed. I hope we get the support of all members of the House.
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- Mar/30/22 4:33:03 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-5
Mr. Speaker, I personally feel that the conditional sentence order part of the bill is the most important part of the bill, in the sense that this is what brings back the flexibility in sentencing that allows for a judge to attack a problem or rectify a problem in the sentence that ought to be attacked. For example, a conditional sentence order will allow a judge to say a person needs to serve home arrest and get the appropriate mental health supports or the appropriate rehabilitation supports if there is a problematic addiction.
It allows for communities to take on the responsibility for the rehabilitation of people through a community justice sentence, which we are funding. This is one of the major ideas that has come from the communities themselves, whether they be racialized, indigenous or Black. They want to help rehabilitate people. Experts in the field tell us that this is the best way to move a community forward, to move society forward and to help everybody heal while protecting public safety. That is what conditional sentence orders do.
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- Mar/30/22 5:21:44 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-5
I declare the motion carried.
The hon. Minister of Justice is rising on a point of order.
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