SoVote

Decentralized Democracy

House Committee

44th Parl. 1st Sess.
October 19, 2023
Context: Bill S-12, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (JUST) - Oct/19/23
Mr. Rhéal Éloi Fortin
  • 03:52:59 p.m.
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I was looking at the amendment, and the purpose is to change the language describing the time limit. The Criminal Code stipulates that witnesses and the victim be informed of the order “at the first reasonable opportunity”. Bill S‑12 uses the wording “as soon as feasible”. CPC‑3 would change that to “immediately”. I understand the idea is to make sure it's done as soon as possible, and obviously, I agree with that. The word “immediately”, however, is open to interpretation. How soon is “immediately”? Is five minutes too late? Clearly, it doesn't make sense for the prosecutor to interrupt the judge to inform the witness in passing that there is an order. I think “immediately” should be interpreted as being done as soon as feasible, as soon as possible, at the first opportunity. I don't think the amendment is helpful. I actually think it would have the opposite effect and complicate things by opening the door to contradictory rulings, given that the courts could interpret the word “immediately” in all sorts of ways. I think the language Bill S‑12 uses, “as soon as feasible”, is reasonable. If we really want to change it, we're going to have to indicate what exactly “immediately” means. We could say that witnesses and the victim have to be informed as soon as feasible, but within 48 hours or something like that. Otherwise, the word “immediately” can't be enforced. It can't be done at the very moment the judge says it. The French version even says “immédiatement”. It's the same word. I think we need a time period, however short it is.
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The Chair
  • 03:54:46 p.m.
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Thank you, Mr. Fortin. I now call the vote on the amendment. Shall CPC-3 carry on division?
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Mr. Rhéal Éloi Fortin
  • 03:55:00 p.m.
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No. I'm voting against the amendment.
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The Chair
  • 03:55:02 p.m.
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Thank you. (Amendment negatived)
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The Chair
  • 03:55:33 p.m.
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PV-3, on page 6 of your package, is deemed moved. Madam May, I see that you're there, but you weren't tested.
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Ms. Elizabeth May (Saanich—Gulf Islands, GP)
  • 03:55:33 p.m.
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I had trouble getting connected to you today. Do you want to test my microphone now?
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The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Jean-François Lafleur)
  • 03:55:39 p.m.
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Yes, Madam May, please go ahead.
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Ms. Elizabeth May
  • 03:55:44 p.m.
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I'm just trying to see if I'm on screen or.... Let's see whether it works when I speak French. I'm sorry I missed the chance to comment on the amendments that have already been defeated, but I'm here now. It's working. Should I proceed at this point, Madam Chair?
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The Chair
  • 03:56:49 p.m.
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Yes. Would you like to say a few words on PV-3?
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Ms. Elizabeth May
  • 03:56:56 p.m.
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Yes, I'd like to make it clear, Madam Chair, that I'm only here before the justice committee because.... I am getting feedback. It is unpleasant. Can someone fix it at your end? I'm only here because your committee, all of you members here today, passed a motion through which I am required to show up with my amendments to committee rather than being able to exercise the rights I would ordinarily and otherwise have at report stage before the House as a whole. I'd just like to put it on the record every time that I'm put through this process. It's not my choice or my desire. I now have, under the terms of your motion, the right to speak to my amendments. This amendment, again—
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The Chair
  • 03:58:01 p.m.
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Ms. May, I need to let you know what I've been told. You're signed on three times in three different names on the screen. That could perhaps be why we're having difficulties. They are instructing me to tell you to please sign off all three of them.
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Ms. Elizabeth May
  • 03:58:21 p.m.
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I will, as long as I won't lose my rights to speak to this amendment, as I lost my rights to earlier ones due to technical problems. I'll leave and come back, Madam Chair, or hopefully when I leave one, I'll come in on the other.
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The Chair
  • 03:58:43 p.m.
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You've left one of them, so that's a good sign. Ms. May, I'm going to suspend for five minutes. I think it's only fair. Beyond that, there's not much else I can do.
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Ms. Elizabeth May
  • 03:59:05 p.m.
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I'm here now. There's still a technical problem.
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The Chair
  • 03:59:12 p.m.
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I'm suspending for five minutes.
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The Chair
  • 04:04:05 p.m.
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The meeting is called to order again. It's been exactly five minutes, and we will proceed. Ms. May, you have the floor to speak on PV-3, please.
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Ms. Elizabeth May
  • 04:04:13 p.m.
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Thank you, Madam Chair, and again I offer my apologies for the technical difficulties. I am of course bringing forward amendments today based on testimony the committee has heard. I know that my friend from Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke has spoken on the floor of the House as well of the extraordinary work of the group My Voice, My Choice. This amendment comes from their testimony and their evidence before this committee. Madam Chair, we haven't been on the same committee together before, so just to explain “PV” for people, this was an old designation chosen by the House because, of course, “Green Party” would be G-3, and then it would look like a government amendment, so it became “Parti Vert”, which leads to PV-3. The reason I'm putting forward this amendment is to meet the situations that have existed in real life, extraordinary as they are, when victims find themselves subject to publication bans without knowing. Of course, the purpose of Bill S-12 in this section is to fix that, so the amendment I'm putting forward at this point would add after subsection (2) in section 486.4 wording to make it clear that the prosecutor may make an application for an order only after obtaining the written consent of the victim or witness who was the subject of the order or after demonstrating that all reasonable attempts to communicate with the victim or witness have failed. The point is that there must not be a time when a publication ban is applied when the victim has not been made aware of the fact that this is being brought in. I hope that's a clear and good summary. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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The Chair
  • 04:06:02 p.m.
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Thank you very much. Go ahead, Mr. Caputo.
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Mr. Frank Caputo (Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, CPC)
  • 04:06:04 p.m.
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Thank you. My understanding from experience is that the publication ban occurs by operation of law. The question I think we have to grapple with as a committee is this: Do we want something within the amendments that says there is a requirement to let victims know of their right to set aside the ban? That's the fundamental question here. We have a number of amendments here. I'm not sure, just gauging the people in the room here, whether that is palatable, because we would need a subamendment or we would just cut to the chase and say, no, that's just not something we're open to. I know that might not be conventional, but that's my sense.
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The Chair
  • 04:06:41 p.m.
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Shall PV-3 carry? Do you want me to get a recorded vote? Okay, please go ahead, Mr. Clerk. (Amendment negatived: nays 7; yeas 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings]) The Chair: Thank you. PV-3 is defeated. Now we're on PV-4. Shall PV-4 carry? Would you like a recorded vote, or is it on division? We will have a recorded vote, please.
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