44th Parl. 1st Sess.

October 19, 2023

The Chair (Ms. Lena Metlege Diab (Halifax West, Lib.))

03:38:24 p.m.
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Welcome everyone.

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The Chair (Ms. Lena Metlege Diab (Halifax West, Lib.))

03:38:24 p.m.
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I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 78 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. Pursuant to the order of reference of October 5, 2023, the committee is meeting to proceed to the clause-by-clause study of Bill S-12, an act to amend the Criminal Code, the Sex Offender Information Registration Act and the International Transfer of Offenders Act. Pursuant to the Standing Orders, today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely by using the Zoom application. Those attending via the Zoom application have been tested and the interpreters are okay with their sound. I need to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and the members, and these are quite important. Some of them are standard and I say them all the time, and others pertain just to clause-by-clause consideration. First, please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone to active your mike and mute yourself when you are not speaking. I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair. For those in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand and I will recognize you. For those of you on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best as we can, and we do appreciate your patience and understanding. We have justice department officials with us today to provide answers to technical questions throughout our study. Welcome again, Mr. Matthew Taylor, general counsel and director, criminal law policy section, and Madame Joanna Wells, acting senior counsel, criminal law policy section. Thank you so much for being here. I really value your being here, and I'm sure the members will as well. We're ready to start clause-by-clause consideration of Bill S-12. Please listen to this, because we have not done it in a while, and on the committee there are a number who.... I certainly haven't done it as a chair, so I'm going to go slowly to ensure that I recognize everyone I need to and give everybody an opportunity and provide you with the information I have. This is how the committee will proceed through clause-by-clause study. As members already know, this is an examination of all the clauses in the order in which they appear in the bill. I will call each clause successively, and each clause is subject to debate and a vote. If there are amendments to the clause in question, I will recognize the member proposing it, who may explain it. The amendment will then be open for debate. When no further members wish to intervene, the amendment will be voted on. Amendments will be considered in the order in which they appear in the bill or in the package each member received from the clerk. Here, please note the following, and this is really important: Amendments must be submitted in writing to the clerk of the committee. The chair—that's me—will go slowly to allow all members to follow the proceedings properly. Amendments have all been given a number in the top right corner to indicate which party submitted it, and there's no need for a seconder to move an amendment. Once you move an amendment, you will need unanimous consent to withdraw it. During debate on an amendment, members are permitted to move subamendments. These subamendments must be submitted in writing; there are no verbal ones permitted from the floor. They do not require the approval of the mover of the amendment. Only one subamendment may be considered at a time, and that subamendment cannot be amended. When a subamendment is moved to an amendment, it is voted on first. Then another subamendment may be moved, or the committee may consider the main amendment and vote on it. Once every clause has been voted on, the committee will vote on the title and the bill itself. Finally, the committee will have to order the chair to report the bill to the House. That report contains only the text of any adopted amendments, as well as an indication of any deleted clauses. Before I start, I want to thank in advance members from the legislative clerk's office, who are here with me. They will be providing support to me on any issue that might arise on the procedure. Ladies and gentlemen, here we go. Shall clause 1 carry? (Clause 1 agreed to) (On clause 2) The Chair: I call clause 2. PV-1 is deemed moved, pursuant to the routine motion adopted by the committee on December 16, 2021. Shall PV-1 carry? Go ahead, Mr. Moore.

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S-12, An Act to amend the Criminal Code, the Sex Offender Information Registration Act and the International Transfer of Offenders Act

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Hon. Rob Moore (Fundy Royal, CPC)

03:45:02 p.m.
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Thank you, Madam Chair. Could the officials who are here from the department provide some clarity on what this Green Party amendment would do exactly?

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The Chair

03:45:19 p.m.
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Please go ahead, Mr. Taylor.

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Mr. Matthew Taylor (General Counsel and Director, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice)

03:45:23 p.m.
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Thank you for the question. In the current subsection 486.4(1), the language specifies “victims” and “witnesses” in the stated law. It appears to us that the amendment proposes to replace the reference to “witness” generally with “witness under the age of 18”. That appears to be done to mirror subsequent subsections of section 486.4. The implication of that, from our perspective, would be that it would have the effect of excluding the ability of a court to make a publication ban under section 486.4 for adult witnesses. The general starting point is that all witnesses and victims of sexual assault—primarily sexual assault—fall within the scope of this provision. There are mandatory rules for child victims, adult victims and child witnesses. Therefore, if you limit it to witnesses under the age of 18, as is proposed, adult witnesses would have to rely upon section 486.5 of the Criminal Code.

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The Chair

03:46:52 p.m.
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Mr. Brock is next.

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Mr. Larry Brock (Brantford—Brant, CPC)

03:46:54 p.m.
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Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Taylor, I was somewhat confused by the language in this particular amendment because, to your point, the code already provides necessary direction to the court when dealing with witnesses and victims under the age of 18. The order is actually mandatory; it's not discretionary. In the way this is drafted, the word “may” provides a discretionary exercise, which kind of defeats the original purpose for which the code was drafted. Would you agree?

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Mr. Matthew Taylor

03:47:31 p.m.
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Certainly the purpose of section 486.4 was to provide certainty to victims and witnesses in the sexual offences listed that if an application for a publication ban was made, it would be given. You will know—as you've heard—that the reason for that was to encourage the reporting of offences that are historically under-reported.

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The Chair

03:47:55 p.m.
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We will go to Mr. Garrison, please.

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Mr. Randall Garrison (Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, NDP)

03:48:00 p.m.
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Thank you very much, Madam Chair. We have a large number of amendments before us today and we are working toward a deadline for getting this bill approved in Parliament. I have a concern, because the Senate has already passed it, that if we make extensive changes, we will endanger meeting that deadline. I'm not going to say this many times today; I'm going to say it once. I'll be voting only for amendments that I think are essential. We heard from some witnesses about some things that we definitely need to do. However, we have a large number of other amendments here, and I'm concerned that this will result in a delay when it comes to the House dealing with the Senate.

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The Chair

03:48:34 p.m.
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Thank you. Go ahead, Mr. Maloney.

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Mr. James Maloney (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.)

03:48:40 p.m.
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Based on the questions we heard, I think it's.... I appreciate the spirit in which these amendments were tabled. I am empathetic and understand where they come from. I think we all are. Well, I know we all are. However, to echo what Mr. Garrison just said, I think we should.... I will be voting against this amendment and some of the others for the same reason. I think, in the interest of time, we should move on.

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The Chair

03:49:15 p.m.
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Can I call for the amendment, please? Shall PV-1 carry? (Amendment negatived) The Chair: Thank you. Shall PV-2 carry? We'll go for a recorded vote. (Amendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 5) The Chair: Next we have CPC-1, which is on page 3 of the package. Would the member like to move that, please? I don't know which member it is, so you decide.

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Hon. Rob Moore

03:50:43 p.m.
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I will move that.

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The Chair

03:50:43 p.m.
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Okay, that is moved by Mr. Moore. Shall CPC-1 carry? Can we have a recorded vote, please, Mr. Clerk? (Amendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 5) The Chair: Next we have CPC-2 on page 4 of your package. Would someone like to move the amendment?

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