44th Parl. 1st Sess.
October 19, 2023
- 03:55:33 p.m.
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I had trouble getting connected to you today.
Do you want to test my microphone now?
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- 03:55:44 p.m.
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I'm just trying to see if I'm on screen or....
Let's see whether it works when I speak French.
I'm sorry I missed the chance to comment on the amendments that have already been defeated, but I'm here now.
It's working.
Should I proceed at this point, Madam Chair?
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- 03:56:56 p.m.
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Yes, I'd like to make it clear, Madam Chair, that I'm only here before the justice committee because.... I am getting feedback. It is unpleasant. Can someone fix it at your end?
I'm only here because your committee, all of you members here today, passed a motion through which I am required to show up with my amendments to committee rather than being able to exercise the rights I would ordinarily and otherwise have at report stage before the House as a whole. I'd just like to put it on the record every time that I'm put through this process. It's not my choice or my desire.
I now have, under the terms of your motion, the right to speak to my amendments. This amendment, again—
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- 03:58:21 p.m.
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I will, as long as I won't lose my rights to speak to this amendment, as I lost my rights to earlier ones due to technical problems.
I'll leave and come back, Madam Chair, or hopefully when I leave one, I'll come in on the other.
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- 03:59:05 p.m.
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I'm here now.
There's still a technical problem.
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- 04:04:13 p.m.
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Thank you, Madam Chair, and again I offer my apologies for the technical difficulties.
I am of course bringing forward amendments today based on testimony the committee has heard. I know that my friend from Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke has spoken on the floor of the House as well of the extraordinary work of the group My Voice, My Choice. This amendment comes from their testimony and their evidence before this committee.
Madam Chair, we haven't been on the same committee together before, so just to explain “PV” for people, this was an old designation chosen by the House because, of course, “Green Party” would be G-3, and then it would look like a government amendment, so it became “Parti Vert”, which leads to PV-3.
The reason I'm putting forward this amendment is to meet the situations that have existed in real life, extraordinary as they are, when victims find themselves subject to publication bans without knowing. Of course, the purpose of Bill S-12 in this section is to fix that, so the amendment I'm putting forward at this point would add after subsection (2) in section 486.4 wording to make it clear that the prosecutor may make an application for an order only after obtaining the written consent of the victim or witness who was the subject of the order or after demonstrating that all reasonable attempts to communicate with the victim or witness have failed. The point is that there must not be a time when a publication ban is applied when the victim has not been made aware of the fact that this is being brought in.
I hope that's a clear and good summary. Thank you, Madam Chair.
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- 04:07:57 p.m.
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Under the terms of the motion that this committee passed, I do believe that I have a right to speak to PV-4 to explain the reasons that it is being put forward before it's summarily defeated.
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- 04:08:38 p.m.
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Yes. I'm very surprised that the last amendment was defeated, because I did think that the committee was aware—as I thought the minister was aware—that Bill S-12 will need amendments in order to meet the goals of ensuring that victims are not subject to publication bans without their knowledge. Therefore, the amendment again here is attempting to ensure, as are others before you, that the rights of the victims are reflected in their advance knowledge of, and permission for, publication bans apply to them.
I am disappointed. I appreciate very much the support from a number of colleagues around the room, but I don't understand why we wouldn't want to ensure that these amendments that go to the issues raised by My Voice, My Choice are all carried.
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- 04:26:31 p.m.
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Thank you, Madam Chair.
Dear colleagues, I do hope everyone will give this amendment a real chance. It should not create any issues for anyone, regardless of whatever party you're with.
This amendment is so clearly in the victims' interests, and it doesn't create a burden in terms of locating a victim to get their awareness of an order before issuing it. This is simply to ensure that when the order has been made—as you can see here—a copy of the order is provided to them.
We know from cases in real life of people who've survived sexual assault that this is an extraordinary reality. To survive a sexual assault, to go to the police, to successfully apprehend the perpetrator, to actually achieve a court decision that there has been a sexual assault and the perpetrator is sentenced.... It's to ensure that the victim is aware that they've been placed under a publication ban, so they can't use their own name. We must at least be sure that the publication ban is something they are aware of so that they don't inadvertently, after all of that, fall afoul of the law and end up being fined or sanctioned for violating a publication ban by using their own name.
I beg of you to please pass amendment PV-5. It's very straightforward.
Now, I'm not allowed, under the terms of your order, to participate in debate, so I'm just anticipating any questions. This is very straightforward and I do hope that my colleagues will see fit to accept this amendment.
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- 04:26:44 p.m.
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Is there not going to be a recorded vote?
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- 04:26:52 p.m.
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I know I'm not allowed to do that.
An hon. member: With all due respect, Madam Chair, you can't just assume.
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- 04:28:06 p.m.
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Chair, I have an absolute right, under the terms of the motion....
I'm sorry, but I was trying to get my hand up. The functions are very difficult. I just get a hand up and get off mute to beg for something that in most committees, I have to say, is more automatic, which is to have a right to speak before my amendment is defeated.
I'm so sorry, Madam Chair. I'm sorry to be emotional, but I was so shocked there—
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- 04:28:38 p.m.
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I couldn't get it up in time because of the little cursor thing wobbling all over. It doesn't always go directly to “raise hand”. It's a little more difficult. I'm sorry, Madam Chair.
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- 04:29:03 p.m.
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- 04:29:11 p.m.
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I'd like to see a recorded vote.
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- 04:29:33 p.m.
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I know that the people from My Voice, My Choice, who are watching this, would like to know who votes against their amendments. My amendments come from their testimony.
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- 04:29:33 p.m.
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Thank you.
Again, this business of deeming my motions moved is all because the larger parties didn't like the rights that I do have to put these amendments forward if I chose to do so. If you didn't have this motion in place at your committee, I would be able to move all of these amendments in the House in full session, and then we'd be able to have the debate.
The witnesses from My Voice, My Choice have made it very clear why they feel Bill S-12 needs improvements. This is one of those improvements, and I'm hoping this time.... I know it doesn't seem very likely that the amendment will be accepted, but I do urge the committee to consider this as a minor improvement to the overall scheme of Bill S-12, in the interests of the victims, who otherwise find themselves under these publication bans without their knowledge.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
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- 04:32:45 p.m.
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I understand, my friend.
Madam Chair, is it possible for me to respond to Monsieur Fortin's comments?
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- 04:32:54 p.m.
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Thank you.
Very briefly, the publication order is a question of the individual's name. Each individual has their own name, so if each individual has to agree that their name be listed or not listed, that is their right, and it doesn't mean that no one can be listed. A publication ban could apply to one but not the other, but in each case the victim or witness would have to agree that they would like to have the publication ban apply to them or not. It's a question of their personal name and whether their name is on the order.
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- 04:37:15 p.m.
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Technically I'm not the mover because of the strangeness of this procedure with which I am being forced to comply, since otherwise I lose my other rights. I'm not the mover; it's “deemed moved”. Yes, it's my amendment, but it is a very strange process, Madam Chair, I agree.
This amendment is attempting to deal with, again, ensuring that people who are witnesses or victims are given access to exercise their own rights under this section. This clarifies the application process to vary or revoke a publication ban. It's under section 486.5, which is on the discretionary publication bans.
The two categories are in the first part of my amendment. If a witness under the age of 18 or a victim who's subject to an order made under section 486.4 asks the prosecutor to have the ban varied or revoked, the prosecutor shall, as soon as feasible, make the application to vary or revoke that order on their behalf. If the court, for any reason, is unable to act, another court can vary or revoke the publication order.
The point here is to make sure that when a victim or witness who is the subject of a publication ban tries to have it removed, wants it varied or wants it revoked, there is a requirement that the prosecutor act on their behalf quickly, and that if they're not for any reason able to get to that court, another court shall hold the hearing as quickly as possible and determine whether the publication ban should remain in place; or, again—this is at the request of a witness under 18 or a victim subject of the order—that they have access to justice in getting the publication ban varied or revoked.
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