Senator Gold: Thank you, senator. The government works closely with its provincial and territorial counterparts — and Indigenous communities and leadership — with regard to health. Again, the role that the federal government has in this is to provide funding. It is the provinces who have to prioritize in the best interests of their own citizens and take into account their own best judgment. Lots of money is flowing to the provinces and will continue to do so to support Canadians.

Senator Dalphond: Thank you, senator. Thank you for your speech. There is a lot that has been said, and I am glad that you agreed with some of the things I said speaking of Budget 2023.

Do you know how much it costs for somebody who is raising chickens or turkeys in Ontario using natural gas? How much does the carbon tax cost this year per cubic metre on the price of gas?

Senator Wells: I do not know that exact amount, no.

Senator Gold: I will certainly transmit those concerns and the Globe and Mail article to the attention of the minister.

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, as is allowed by our practice, Senator Boyer will speak in Michif during our proceedings today. Senators may listen to the simultaneous interpretation on the English or French channel.

Senator Batters: Justin Trudeau’s Minister of Rural Economic Development said that if the Prairies also want the carbon tax carve-out, they should elect more Liberals. Thanks, but no. This sure does not say much for Ralph Goodale’s years at the Trudeau cabinet table when the carbon tax was created. Regional discrimination is no way to run a country. When will this Trudeau government cut the hot air and axe this unfair tax on home heating for all Canadians?

Senator Plett: The Leader of the Conservative Party of Canada, Pierre Poilievre, asked the Prime Minister to explain this discrepancy three times during yesterday’s Question Period in the House of Commons. He also can’t tell us anything; it seems like you and him are alike there. The Prime Minister did not come close to answering, which is, sadly, what Canadians have come to expect from him, Senator Gold.

Can you explain the discrepancy here, leader? Are the U.K. and Canadian governments not sharing intelligence anymore?

Senator Plett: What is there that you can share — the time of day?

Senator Plett: And you recognized Senator Wells as well, on debate.

Senator Plett: A response that I received in 2021 to my written question about the $196-million loss said:

The government is unable to provide more details on this specific transaction, as it would result in making public confidential information about a private company.

Senator Gold, this $196 million belongs to Canadian taxpayers. They deserve better than eight long years of the Trudeau government saying, “Take our word for it.”

What company was involved?

Senator Plett: Well, first of all, you should not make comments about whether people are here or not, but there are other speakers on the list.

Senator Gold: Thank you. The passion with which you ask the question still does not change the fact that in matters of this kind — as it is in business — there are confidentiality agreements understood, regulated and protected by law that do not make it appropriate, necessarily, to provide the information that you are seeking.

I am not assuming any more than that about the circumstances.

Senator Gold: I’m sure that the committee will do its work in the spirit of honouring the veterans, and will do so with dignity, integrity and a non-partisan approach to our veterans’ demands. I’m sure that they will have the appropriate level of cooperation from the government in that regard.

Senator Plett: Your Honour, you have not yet ruled on the point of order.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: Since I am not an accountant and you may not be one either, we will have to agree to disagree. I think that different numbers are making the rounds on refundable tax credit repayments and on what all that is really creating. Thank you.

Senator Batters: And you are the sponsor.

Senator McCallum: Honourable senators, with your leave, I would like to withdraw the motion and have the vote at 5:30.

Senator McCallum: No, I’m not.

Senator Plett: The Chaplain General also reportedly said that “. . . a committee will be formed to review the new directive . . . .” The Trudeau government wouldn’t be forced to backtrack and promise a committee review if they did nothing wrong, would they? They clearly have no moral compass.

Leader, will you offer an apology for your response to Senator MacDonald on October 19, when you accused him of misleading in this chamber? Also, who gets to sit on this committee and who will appoint them?

Senator Gold: Thank you for your questions. I did not mislead the committee in my answer previous to your question nor am I misleading anyone now, and no, I don’t have an apology to offer at this juncture.

Senator Batters: With respect to the natural gas that’s used to heat the barns and that type of thing, Senator Wells, can you give us some indication as to the costs for that? I understand that you’ve recently received some correspondence from a chicken farmer in Alberta who talked about the massive costs. I think they relayed that, last year, the heating cost for their barn was $120,000, and that it was $180,000 this year. When the carbon tax reaches $170 per tonne, it will be $480,000 annually.

Are those the types of costs that we are trying to help farmers with so that food can eventually cost less for us?

Senator Wells: Thank you for your question. Now, I will also tell you I don’t know a lot about chicken farming, but I did visit a poultry farm in southern Alberta. I asked for a tour. They wouldn’t give me a tour because of biosecurity and that sort of thing, which I understand. But I spent a lot of time asking about their operation. I hope to get to your question.

The time it takes from the hatching of an egg to the selling of a chicken is eight weeks. This is a constant. They have eight barns on two sites. I think they actually use propane because their community is not furnished with natural gas. They have limited choices already, so they use propane. They gave me their numbers based on the price of carbon, and at $170 per tonne, it will be close to half a million dollars per year. That was a modest-sized operation. It wasn’t big.

I do know that the price of natural gas is decreasing. Senator Dalphond pointed that out at committee, and he is correct. But that’s not a constant. We don’t know what the price of natural gas will be next year. Or propane. We live in a volatile, geopolitical world, and hope is not a plan when you are trying to make money from a business.

Other than that, it is costly. I know this particular farmer was doing all they could — again, it was a family farm. They had the best insulation, and heat shields on the sunny side of the barn to deflect the heat so it wouldn’t have a greater effect on their barn. They used ventilation. Of course, in the prairie winter, they have to heat the place.

Again, I think I mentioned this in an earlier speech, but there is a very narrow range in which they have to keep these chickens. Three or four degrees above, and they last minutes. Anything below, and he said they last a little bit longer, but they will still die. That’s what I know about the price and the cost that it takes these farmers with respect to the fuel they need for heating and cooling the barns.

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