Senator Dalphond: I can repeat it. Is it true that the difference between the grain producers in Ontario who will benefit from your bill and those who will not benefit from it, the majority, is, according to the witnesses, maybe 1%, more likely less?

Senator Wells: Thank you, Senator Dalphond.

I would have to say that in the enormous outpouring we received from farmers, ranchers and growers and their associations that speak for their total amounts, including mushroom producers and others, it would appear to me that there will be a greater benefit than 1%. I think we would all agree that of all the emails and outreach and phone calls, if it were a 1% question, I don’t think we would have received that much.

Of course, the Parliamentary Budget Officer said that a billion dollars taken from the industry would be reinvested in the things we want for businesses: to be more productive, have a greater volume of goods for the price, upgrade their infrastructure, which would actually make an impact on the environment. A billion dollars back into the sector is significant enough that it would take care of that 1% you referenced.

Senator Dalphond: I spoke with farmers, and I can give you the information. I have the bills. The tax on carbon this year is two cents per cubic metre. That is the increase. Last year it was two cents. The year before it was two cents per cubic metre. Maybe, Senator Wells, you can tell us the price of natural gas in Ontario?

Senator Wells: Thank you, Senator Dalphond, for your question. I do not know the price of natural gas in Ontario. I only know the amount of actual dollars that farmers have to pay — large, medium and small — is considerable and derives no benefit to their farm and probably no benefit to the environment.

Senator Dalphond: Thank you, senator. Thank you for your speech. There is a lot that has been said, and I am glad that you agreed with some of the things I said speaking of Budget 2023.

Do you know how much it costs for somebody who is raising chickens or turkeys in Ontario using natural gas? How much does the carbon tax cost this year per cubic metre on the price of gas?

Senator Wells: I do not know that exact amount, no.

Senator Dalphond: Would you accept another question?

Senator Wells: Yes.

Senator Dalphond: Will you accept another question?

Senator Dalphond: I do not know if Senator Wells will take another question from me.

Senator Wells: Senator Dalphond, it is my policy to take questions until my time is up.

Senator Dalphond: Thank you very much. I will not take that as an invitation as there are 12 minutes left.

In evidence before the committee, the President of the Saskatchewan Association of Rural Municipalities said that he bought himself a new dryer. According to his experience, which he shared as I questioned him, and as the Ontario Ministry of Agriculture published numbers on this, there were savings of approximately 30% on the cost of natural gas. You use far less natural gas.

Don’t you see that what you are proposing now is that we should not have the tax because they want to keep the old equipment but we should remove the tax in order for them to buy new equipment?

Don’t you think it will be better to keep the tax and force them to buy new equipment — and save 30% on their cost of gas?

Senator Wells: Thank you, Senator Dalphond, for that final question.

I have run a number of businesses. I would take 30% savings on anything any day. If you go back to the example I used, it was clear, in fact, and it was recent — two days ago — they are not currently drying. They are sending it off-site, and that costs them. They will dry. They are going to install their dryer, and that will be a saving into the future. She said, “This is a 12-year payback and that is perfect for us. We can afford that and cover that.”

The money that will not be going to the government under the carbon tax program will help them pay for it. I do not see the downside of that in any way. I do not see it. It gives them certainty of scheduling of drying. Some weeks or some months they need to dry more, some they would need to dry less. But they would be able to make that decision based upon what is on their farm. Those are operational savings that they would have as well.

Senator Dalphond: The price now is $1.21 per cubic metre. It was $1.39 a year ago, including the tax on carbon.

My next question is about the need to maintain competitiveness. I certainly agree with the principle that we should have an agricultural sector which is competitive.

Senator Wells, maybe you missed it, but some witnesses before the committee mentioned, and the evidence has shown, that for 60% and more of the grain growers in Ontario, Bill C-234 will not apply. Why? Because they use third-party warehouses and dryers. These people will not benefit from your bill. So 60% or even 65% of grain producers in Ontario will not benefit from it.

You say we have to maintain competitiveness. The bill does not seem to achieve that.

One of the representatives — I do not know if you are aware of it, but I asked him questions in committee. The question to you is the following: What is the difference of the competitiveness between the producers who will have access to the rebate and those, the 60% and even more, who will not have access to it?

Senator Wells: Thank you, Senator Dalphond.

That’s a great question. First I will go to the question of the 60% or more who don’t use or have on-farm drying.

You will have possibly heard my answer to Senator Batters’ question that led me to talk about the farmer I spoke with Tuesday night who currently does off-site drying in North Gower, and they are an hour north of here. North Gower is a little bit south of here. This is an opportunity for them to do on-site drying and gain the benefit. I would imagine that 60% or more, whatever the number is — I do not even know if it is that, but if you say it is, I will take it at face value — will give the opportunity for that grain drying to be done on-site and, therefore, benefit from Bill C-234.

Frankly, I have to say that I cannot remember your second question.

Hon. Pierre J. Dalphond: Would Senator Wells take another question?

[English]

Senator Wells: Of course, Senator Dalphond.