Senator Batters: With respect to the natural gas that’s used to heat the barns and that type of thing, Senator Wells, can you give us some indication as to the costs for that? I understand that you’ve recently received some correspondence from a chicken farmer in Alberta who talked about the massive costs. I think they relayed that, last year, the heating cost for their barn was $120,000, and that it was $180,000 this year. When the carbon tax reaches $170 per tonne, it will be $480,000 annually.

Are those the types of costs that we are trying to help farmers with so that food can eventually cost less for us?

Senator Wells: Thank you for your question. Now, I will also tell you I don’t know a lot about chicken farming, but I did visit a poultry farm in southern Alberta. I asked for a tour. They wouldn’t give me a tour because of biosecurity and that sort of thing, which I understand. But I spent a lot of time asking about their operation. I hope to get to your question.

The time it takes from the hatching of an egg to the selling of a chicken is eight weeks. This is a constant. They have eight barns on two sites. I think they actually use propane because their community is not furnished with natural gas. They have limited choices already, so they use propane. They gave me their numbers based on the price of carbon, and at $170 per tonne, it will be close to half a million dollars per year. That was a modest-sized operation. It wasn’t big.

I do know that the price of natural gas is decreasing. Senator Dalphond pointed that out at committee, and he is correct. But that’s not a constant. We don’t know what the price of natural gas will be next year. Or propane. We live in a volatile, geopolitical world, and hope is not a plan when you are trying to make money from a business.

Other than that, it is costly. I know this particular farmer was doing all they could — again, it was a family farm. They had the best insulation, and heat shields on the sunny side of the barn to deflect the heat so it wouldn’t have a greater effect on their barn. They used ventilation. Of course, in the prairie winter, they have to heat the place.

Again, I think I mentioned this in an earlier speech, but there is a very narrow range in which they have to keep these chickens. Three or four degrees above, and they last minutes. Anything below, and he said they last a little bit longer, but they will still die. That’s what I know about the price and the cost that it takes these farmers with respect to the fuel they need for heating and cooling the barns.

[Translation]

Senator Batters: Right.

Senator Wells: Certainly, one of the things that I did learn is when a farmer goes to a bank or goes to a lender, their case is a whole lot better when they don’t have this additional burden and they can apply that benefit that is retained in their earnings to their application for funds. Normally it is a long-term lease. Certainly, it would be more beneficial along those lines.

Senator Batters: Thank you. I appreciate that.

Senator Wells, thank you very much for your detailed speech on Bill C-234, which is so crucial to farmers not only in my home province of Saskatchewan but across the country.

You mentioned in your speech that grain dryers are a significant capital expense, and just having a tiny bit of experience with this — being that many years ago and for about 30-some years my dad sold farm equipment, including grain dryers, I know how significant this expense is. I wanted to give some of our colleagues a chance to know about that as well.

Isn’t it true that a new grain dryer, which is the most efficient type that can be purchased right now, is probably an expense costing between $100,000 to $150,000 each for a farm? I’m not talking about a commercial grain dryer, just a regular farm one. It may even be more now as the costs have gone up considerably.

Senator Wells: Senator Batters, thank you for your question. I will be frank — I don’t know the price of a grain dryer. But I do know that after debate finished on Tuesday, I went to the Canola Growers Association reception and I spoke with a family farmer who has a canola farm about an hour north of Ottawa. She told me that if Bill C-234 passes — and it is not a big farm — they will be able to buy a grain dryer instead of having to send grain to North Gower, just south of Ottawa, and their payback period would be 12 years with the savings that they would realize from not having to pay the carbon tax.

I don’t know the price of a dryer, but I do know that for this small canola farmer, who wishes to dry their own grain on their own farm because they have more control — and, of course, there would be fewer transport costs sending it out — that a 12‑year payback is reasonable on a piece of industrial equipment. Further, with that additional money in their pockets, going to the bank and seeking credit would be a lot easier than if it were otherwise.

Senator Batters: And you are the sponsor.

Senator Batters: Justin Trudeau’s Minister of Rural Economic Development said that if the Prairies also want the carbon tax carve-out, they should elect more Liberals. Thanks, but no. This sure does not say much for Ralph Goodale’s years at the Trudeau cabinet table when the carbon tax was created. Regional discrimination is no way to run a country. When will this Trudeau government cut the hot air and axe this unfair tax on home heating for all Canadians?

Senator Batters: Isn’t it true that brand-new grain dryers that are the most efficient do have a saving on the energy costs; however, the substantial cost is that a brand-new very efficient grain dryer could be $150,000 or more? Isn’t that correct?

Senator Wells: Thank you, Senator Batters.

A grain dryer is a huge cost. If you have a larger farm, you are going to require more drying capacity. That would either be multiple dryers or a dryer that has that higher capacity. I can only imagine that will be a higher capital cost. Certainly, if it is on‑farm, then at least you have some of the benefit of not having to pay the tax on the drying operation.

Senator Batters: Senator Moncion, there was an amendment that I believe was similar to this that was proposed at the Agriculture Committee at clause by clause and it was defeated. Is this the same amendment?

Hon. Denise Batters: Senator Gold, the Trudeau government has repeatedly claimed that their punishing carbon tax scheme aims to encourage Canadians to use more efficient sources of energy. We in Saskatchewan have been doing that for decades. In the early 1980s, Progressive Conservative premier Grant Devine changed our province’s heat source from heating oil to natural gas at a then cost of about $150 million — a huge investment for our small province. Now only about 0.3% of Saskatchewan homes still heat with oil. That is roughly equivalent to the number of Liberals we elect — net zero.

The Trudeau government’s supposedly national carbon tax carve-out applies only to homes heated with oil, which creates much more pollution than natural gas. Why is your government discriminating against the Saskatchewan people when we implemented cleaner energy 40 years ago?

Hon. Denise Batters: Will Senator Wells take a couple of questions?

Senator Wells: I will, Senator Batters.

Hon. Denise Batters: I have a question.