Hon. Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu: My question is for the Leader of the Government in the Senate. The position of Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime has been vacant since October 1, 2021. For the past two months, victims of crime have had no official representative within the federal government. The last time this position was vacant, in 2017, it took the Minister of Justice a year to fill the position, whereas around the same time, the position of Correctional Investigator, the ombudsman for criminals, was filled in a month.

Can you explain to the victims and to this chamber, during this week of action against violence against women, why the position is still vacant and when the Department of Justice plans to fill it?

Hon. Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu: Senator, if I understood you correctly, you stated in your speech that most of the population wants minimum sentences to be abolished and wants to let judges have full discretion when sentencing persons convicted of assaulting children, abusing minors or spousal abuse. What studies are you referring to when making this statement?

[English]

Senator Boisvenu: Senator, to lend credibility to your arguments and to this bill, when stating that the majority of Canadians are in favour of a given measure, should you not be citing the study, author and page where these facts are found?

[English]

Senator Boisvenu: The Ombudsman for the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces recently requested that he no longer report to the Minister of National Defence in order to ensure independence in dealing with the complaints he receives. The Office of the Correctional Investigator also reports to Parliament, and therefore to the Minister of Public Safety, in order to maintain its independence. However, the Office of the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime reports to the Minister of Justice and depends on that minister’s goodwill to continue operating.

Senator Gold, will the government ensure that the two positions — the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime and the Ombudsman for the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces — are put on an equal footing, by having the Office of the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime report to the House of Commons rather than the Minister of Justice?

Hon. Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu: Senator, you used the word “torture” several times. Do you have an idea of the number of complaints the Correctional Investigator has received about torture in prisons, in federal penitentiaries, and do you know how many of these complaints were founded?

[English]

Senator Pate: The use of “torture” comes from the international UN rules on the treatment of prisoners and from the special rapporteur on torture and detention. That definition is one that the courts have then used — the 15-day limit, as anything beyond that can amount to torture. Yes, there have been complaints put in through the Correctional Service of Canada. I do not have the exact number at my fingertips. I do know that the Correctional Investigator of Canada has investigated many. I do know that when Dr. Doob — who was actually the chair of the minister’s advisory committee to review these structured intervention units — couldn’t even get the data himself nor could other members of the committee, and when they did finally get data and saw just how many times — and I mentioned the number of times, I think it was 49 or more — people were held for six times the 15-day limit that was put in place, even then corrections tried to say that in fact their documentation was problematic. So part of the challenge — and I think it’s something that all of us would be interested in seeing — is how to actually hold accountable the Correctional Service of Canada to do the job it’s supposed to do. With almost one-to-one employees per prisoner, presumably we’d see a lot more of that information being made available in a more transparent and accountable way.

[Translation]

Senator Boisvenu: I visited penitentiaries in Quebec — not in the other provinces — and it is understood that when someone mentions the word “torture” over and over, they are referring to situations in third-world countries or totalitarian states. However, if we are using the word “torture” in Canada, we need to provide some scientific data to give it substance. When I talk about the number of women who are assaulted in Canada, I use data to back up my claim and to say that there was a specific number of women who were murdered or a given number of instances of attempted murder. If you are using a strong word like “torture” in the context of federal penitentiaries — we are not in Mexico here — don’t you think that you should back up these claims with real, meaningful data to give your bill some credibility and to make sure that the use of this word will not be challenged?

[English]

Senator Pate: I absolutely agree, and if you believe that any of what I have said or any of the documentation is inaccurate, I would welcome you to show me that evidence.

(On motion of Senator Duncan, for Senator Jaffer, debate adjourned.)

The Senate proceeded to consideration of the second report (interim) of the Committee of Selection, entitled Duration of membership on committees, presented in the Senate on December 2, 2021.