Hon. Leo Housakos: Senator Woo, you seem to have missed in my previous answer that I’m committed to one thing — making sure that every stakeholder in the country who wants to come and speak on behalf of the bill, in favour or against, has an opportunity to do so. I know that is not your particular preoccupation, but that is my preoccupation and I am steadfast in defence of that. I will not have the fiasco reoccur that we saw over in the House of Commons where witnesses were chopped off and were not allowed to go before the committee — both witnesses in favour of the bill and against the bill.

We are a genuine chamber of sober second thought, and all I’ve been hearing from this place is independence and the newfound wonders of it, but yet we seem to be working under very clear political pressure here to get a bill out by a particular timeline that leadership or the government wants. I don’t aspire to those particular principles. That is more, I think, your preoccupation. I’m clear — I don’t want to burden you with the same answer — that every witness who wants to be heard will be heard.

Hon. Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu: My question is for the Government Representative in the Senate. According to a damning report by the Auditor General of Canada, in 2020, the Canada Border Services Agency lost track of 35,000 illegal immigrants who were supposed to be deported, including 3,000 criminals. The report stated the following:

[The agency] issued immigration warrants for their [foreign nationals’] arrest but seldom completed the . . . investigations to locate those with criminality.

Last December, the CBSA disclosed a similar figure for 2022. It has lost track of 29,719 illegal immigrants, but only 469 of them are criminals, not 3,000. That is a difference of 2,531.

Can you tell me the exact number of illegal criminals whose whereabouts are unknown to the CBSA? Can you provide the list of the 2,500 criminals who were deported?

Hon. Leo Housakos: Senator Woo, your partisanship has no bounds. At the end of the day, why weren’t you ripping your shirt in indignation when you’ve had committee chairs who are in favour of government legislation? You take exception to chairs of committees — the few chairs of committees that the opposition has in this chamber — who oppose government legislation.

I will repeat what I said yesterday in answer to a question. In this chamber, every senator is equal, regardless of their position. We have a privilege and obligation to articulate on bills, policies and motions as chairs of committees. For the information of this chamber, the significant difference between this chamber and the House is that even our own Speaker is not an arbitrator; he is a barometer of consensus. He can participate in debate and can also vote. That precedent and existence of our rights and obligations should be respected by all senators.

When I articulate my position against a bill, I do that as a senator. I can assure you, as chair of our committee, that all procedures and rules have been respected. Free debate and questioning of all witnesses have been encouraged to the point where I will stand firm that every stakeholder who wants to appear before the committee to articulate for or against will have that right. I hope that every senator on the committee will respect that privilege — yourself included, Senator Woo. That’s called democracy. If you provide any indication of where there’s been a preference by the chair in terms of stifling opposition or favour to this bill, I would love for you to point it out to this chamber.

Hon. Scott Tannas: Honourable senators, I give notice that, at the next sitting of the Senate, I will move:

That the Standing Senate Committee on National Security, Defence and Veterans Affairs be authorized to examine and report on the operation, applicability, and functionality of the Emergencies Act in a modern context, as well as the robustness of parliamentary supervision it provides for and its interaction with the rules and procedures of the Senate; and

That the committee submit its final report no later than September 28, 2023.

Senator Woo: I’m not aware of any chair of a Senate standing committee sending a fundraising letter and using inflammatory language as part of that person’s duty in chairing such a committee.

Senator Housakos, I take it you are committed to discharging the work of this committee in a responsible and honourable way. Tell us, then: What are you doing to ensure that this committee and the proceedings in this chamber — including discussions with your leader and caucus — that we will, in fact, get to the promise that leaders signed of a third-reading vote on November 18?

Hon. Ratna Omidvar: My question is to Senator Gold, the representative of the government in the Senate.

Senator Gold, I want to pursue the line of questioning undertaken by Senator Francis yesterday about the Maritimes and, particularly, about Prince Edward Island.

We all know how the people of the Maritimes are struggling to get their lives back. The situation is difficult and complex. The people of Canada are generous. They have opened their hearts and minds and wallets to the people of the Maritimes, and the Canadian government is matching their donations for disaster relief.

Senator Francis also noted that the Canadian Red Cross — the primary agency with which the government is matching donations — has had difficulty in rolling out aid and services to Maritimers and, in particular, Islanders. The charitable community is disappointed that the government has once again chosen to limit the matching funds to the Red Cross.

I have nothing against the Red Cross. They are a storied institution. We trust them and rely on them. However, I think we all know that when you are on the ground and in need, it is local agencies like the local United Way and the local food bank that are best positioned to provide immediate and effective relief.

Can you tell us why the government has made this choice of limiting matching dollars to only the Red Cross?

Hon. Michèle Audette: Good afternoon, colleagues.

[Editor’s Note: Senator Audette spoke in Innu.]

First of all, I would take a moment to express how proud I am to be able to honour today the Teweikan Gala artists, musicians and, of course, the organizers of the event, the Société de communication Atikamekw-Montagnais, or SOCAM.

The event took place in Sept-Îles on October 7, at the Jean-Marc-Dion Concert Hall. The 4th edition of this gala honoured numerous artists and musicians, all of whom sang in their Indigenous language. This grand tribute enabled them to share their mission, their passion, beautiful sounds and, of course, their language.

This 4th edition, in partnership with Aluminerie Alouette, also paid tribute to the men who play the teueikan drum and to the incredible women who contribute to the preservation of Indigenous languages, including my mother.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank this communications company, SOCAM, and in particular Florent Bégin, a dedicated Innu man who has organized this gala for several years now.

There are also people I know, people I’ve come to know, and I would like to congratulate them on the awards they won at the Teweikan Gala. They are Kathia Rock, Laura Niquay, an Atikamekw woman, Petapan, an Innu group from Pessamit, Samian, from Pikogan, Scott-Pien Picard and Florent Vollant.

It is always a pleasure for me to share beautiful and positive things with you, things that are still very much alive. We must remember that music transcends all territories, even here in the Senate.

I encourage everyone to listen to all of this beautiful music, and once again, thank you to SOCAM and to everyone who helped make this gala possible.

[English]

Hon. Mary Coyle: Honourable senators, I rise today to regale you with more good news coming out of my home province of Nova Scotia.

This year, three national Clean50 awards were handed out to Nova Scotians: Dr. Dave Risk of St. Francis Xavier University, recognized in the Education & Thought Leadership category; Shannon Miedema and the City of Halifax for its climate action plan called HalifACT in the Cities and Top Projects categories; and Clean Foundation of Halifax for its Clean Energy Financing program for homeowners, which works through municipalities.

The Clean50 awards recognize leaders from across Canada who have done the most to advance climate action and develop climate solutions. Our colleague, Senator Rosa Galvez, was previously recognized with a Clean50 award.

Dr. David Risk and his Flux Lab at St. Francis Xavier University — which happens to also include my daughter, Lindi Coyle — was recognized for delivering societally relevant science at scale. They recently completed the largest bottom-up oil and gas measurement study of its kind in the world as they measured the methane emissions of over 7,000 sites across six major oil and gas-producing regions in Canada.

The resulting data sets will be crucial for improving Canadian inventories and drafting regulation to achieve emission reduction targets within our country and around the world. Also working in the Arctic to measure the gases associated with permafrost decay and conducting measurements in the waste sector, Dr. Risk’s Flux Lab website says:

Whether by foot, truck, drone, robot, plane, or satellite, we work to improve the measurement of greenhouse gases.

Now, to the provincial capital, the city of Halifax, which was voted the Clean50 Top Project of-the-Year in all of Canada for its ambitious and inspirational plan HalifACT: Acting on Climate Together. On January 29, 2019, Halifax declared a climate emergency and began a careful, comprehensive and participatory process to develop a plan to get city operations to net-zero emissions by 2030 and the whole city to net zero by 2050. Approved by council in June 2020, the HalifACT initiative focuses on mitigation, adaptation and resilience for this coastal city and includes a set of 46 actions to help the city meet its goals. The main components are retrofitting existing buildings, building net-zero new buildings, installing rooftop solar, developing large-scale renewables and electrifying transportation.

Honourable senators, please join me in congratulating Shannon Miedema and her team at HalifACT, the Clean Foundation of Halifax as well as Dr. David Risk and his Flux Lab team at St. Francis Xavier University in Antigonish. These impressive climate solutions are making a difference.

Wela’lioq. Thank you.

Hon. Bernadette Clement: Honourable senators, on Monday, October 24, Ontarians will go to the polls to elect their municipal councils — well, not all Ontarians.

According to the Association of Municipalities of Ontario, voter turnout in 2018 was the lowest since 1982, with an average of 38.3%. In British Columbia’s municipal elections, just a few days ago, voter turnout was around 37%.

[Translation]

In my community of Cornwall, there are 10 council seats. Of the 27 candidates, only five are women.

[English]

Now, I could share more statistics, disappointing data around the number of acclaimed seats, the lack of diversity in council chambers and the overall lack of engagement with municipal politics, but I’ve always said that this is about love. Running in an election and dedicating time to public life is an act of love. I’m an optimist. I believe that the numbers only tell one part of the story. The people tell the other part.

Over the last few months, I’ve met with many folks running for office in this region. Many of them are new to the world of politics. They’re young and energetic. They represent folks who aren’t often visible in council chambers. They give me hope.

They are willing to face a mounting barrage of online harassment — abuse that is dissuading a growing number of potential candidates. It’s the same abuse that I’ve experienced and that many of my esteemed colleagues have experienced as well. These candidates are willing to work long hours with very little recognition from the community for their efforts. They are willing, and we need them.

Municipal councils do it all. Nation building doesn’t just happen here. It happens one municipality at a time. What’s more, they’re clearing snow, operating swimming lessons, ensuring drinking water is clean and safe, building relationships with neighbouring municipalities and Indigenous communities and driving economic development.

Honourable senators, I’m standing up to speak to this today to remind us all how important local leadership is.

I continually encourage people to run. Now I’m asking — no, urging — the people of Ontario to vote on October 24. Go vote!

Vote, because all politics is local. Vote, because your local candidates who are running for you need your support. Vote, because nothing will have a bigger impact than the decisions made by your municipal council. Thank you. Nia:wen.

Hon. Mohamed-Iqbal Ravalia: Honourable senators, I rise today on behalf of Senator Duncan and myself to help recognize the tremendous efforts of the Canada Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder Research Network. With interdisciplinary collaborators, researchers and partners across the nation, they work together to address the nationwide gaps in the diagnostic and treatment services available to individuals with fetal alcohol spectrum disorder, or FASD, and to improve the lives of those who are affected. The group is also Canada’s first comprehensive national FASD research network.

Fetal alcohol spectrum disorder is a complex and lifelong disability. It is the leading cause of neurodevelopmental disability in Canada, affecting 4% of the population. For context, more individuals live with the disorder than with autism, cerebral palsy, Down syndrome and Tourette syndrome combined. Those affected may face challenges with motor skills, physical health, learning, memory, attention, communication, emotional regulation and social skills.

Further measures can and should be taken to address and foster positive outcomes. Currently, access to diagnostic clinics, interventions and supports is patchy at best across our nation. The immense variation of symptoms and the complexity of the challenges associated means that a multidisciplinary diagnostic approach is required to diagnose the disorder, and that each individual requires a comprehensive, tailored plan to address their unique and specific needs.

Representatives from the Canada Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder Research Network, or CanFASD, are in Ottawa this week for meetings with members of Parliament, senators and government officials to discuss initiatives to address fetal alcohol spectrum disorder. I would like to thank them for their continued efforts in ensuring that individuals affected by the disorder and their caregivers have the supports that they need.

Through interdisciplinary collaboration, we must continue to work toward standardizing guidelines, improving diagnostic criteria and data, as well as enhanced reporting tools that allow us to expand knowledge bases and facilitate information exchange that will continue to increase both public and professional awareness.

Please join me in acknowledging the representatives who have joined us here today in the gallery. Thank you. Meegwetch.

Hon. Senators: Hear, hear.

Honourable senators, I wish to draw your attention to the presence in the gallery of Professor David Wright of the University of Calgary and his wife, Christina Lin Wright. They are the guests of the Honourable Senator Woo.

On behalf of all honourable senators, I welcome you to the Senate of Canada.

Hon. Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu: Honourable senators, I am honoured to rise today to speak to you in memory of my dear mother Monique. My mother had 10 children, taught for 35 years and died at the age of 92. To me, she was a shining example of motherhood and of an emancipated, courageous family woman.

In 1927, when my mother was only seven years old, five women that are now known as the Famous Five launched a legal challenge that marked a turning point in the fight for rights and freedoms in Canada. Ms. Murphy, Ms. McClung, Ms. McKinney, Ms. Muir Edwards and Ms. Parlby, five women activists from Alberta, asked the Supreme Court of Canada to determine whether the term “persons” in section 24 of the British North America Act included women.

After five weeks of deliberations, the Supreme Court ruled that the term “persons” did not include women. Outraged by this decision, the Famous Five refused to give up the fight. They took their case before the Judicial Committee of the British Privy Council in London, the highest court of appeal in Canada at the time. On October 18, 1929, the ruling was announced by Lord Sankey, Lord Chancellor of Great Britain. It read as follows:

The exclusion of women from all public offices is a relic of days more barbarous than ours. And to those who would ask why the word “persons” should include females, the obvious answer is, why should it not?

Persons Day represents a particular moment in Canadian history. It commemorates that day in 1929 when the legal definition of the term “person” was changed to include women. The decision in the Persons Case was a decisive moment in the quest for equal rights in Canada by giving women the right to be appointed to the Senate, paving the way for women to become more involved in public and political life in Canada.

Over the years, statues of the Famous Five have been erected throughout Canada, namely in Winnipeg, Calgary and here in Ottawa, near the entrance to the Senate.

October is Women’s History Month in Canada. This is a time to celebrate the brave women of our past and present who contribute to making Canada a better country. This better Canada must also and above all demand that we protect the women who no longer accept being trapped by domestic violence. In my eyes, they are today’s brave women.

In 1992, the Government of Canada designated October Women’s History Month, thereby kick-starting an annual celebration of the exceptional accomplishments of women and girls throughout Canada’s history.

Yesterday, we marked the thirtieth anniversary of Women’s History Month, and this occasion reminds us that we must protect women. Thank you.

Hon. Raymonde Gagné (Legislative Deputy to the Government Representative in the Senate): Honourable senators, I give notice that, at the next sitting of the Senate, I will move:

That, when the Senate next adjourns after the adoption of this motion, it do stand adjourned until Tuesday, October 25, 2022, at 2 p.m.

[English]

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): Thank you for the question, Senator.

However, as is often the case with your questions, there are nuances and it is not that simple. The government has agreements with suppliers under which it cannot disclose information. Other agreements may be drafted differently or still the government has an agreement with the supplier allowing the information to be disclosed.

That information was protected and there is other information that must remain confidential, at least for the time being, given the agreements that were signed in good faith.

[English]

Hon. Mary Coyle: Senator Gold, in their submission on Bill C-5, the Black Legal Action Centre, the Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies and the Women’s Legal Education and Action Fund supported the government’s characterization of substance use as a public health matter rather than a criminal one. Among other recommendations, they asked for automatic expungement of records for simple drug possession to replace the current costly and cumbersome system. In 2018, when cannabis was legalized in Canada, there was strong support to include pardons for previous offences as part of that legislation, including from the C.D. Howe Institute, which called it an “economic waste” to saddle people with criminal records for something that was no longer a crime.

Carrying a criminal record, as we all know, can make it harder for people — especially the already marginalized — to find housing, go to school, find a job or cross a border. Estimates range anywhere from 10,000 to hundreds of thousands of Canadians who are impacted by this ongoing burden.

Senator Gold, even with the now-lower cost and the possibility of applying for pardons for cannabis-related offences, only 631 applications have been accepted in the past three years. Senator Gold, will the government take note of this stark evidence of the inadequacy of the current system and heed the sensible recommendation to take the responsibility to automatically expunge records for simple drug possession?

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): Thank you for your question, honourable colleague. My understanding is the government has already expressed support for the sequestration of drug possession records, and consultations have begun on the automatic sequestration of a wider variety of criminal records.

The government remains committed to implementing measures that will bring our justice system closer to eradicating systemic racism in the system as well as ensuring a more effective and fair justice system for all.

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate) tabled the reply to Question No. 118, dated February 8, 2022, appearing on the Order Paper and Notice Paper in the name of the Honourable Senator Plett, regarding business fees — Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada.

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): Honourable senators, I have the honour to table the answers to the following oral questions:

Response to the oral question asked in the Senate on December 17, 2021, by the Honourable Senator Ataullahjan, concerning the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Response to the oral question asked in the Senate on March 24, 2022, by the Honourable Senator MacDonald, concerning the Ukraine International Airlines flight PS752 tragedy.

Response to the oral question asked in the Senate on March 31, 2022, by the Honourable Senator McPhedran, concerning human rights.

Response to the oral question asked in the Senate on June 8, 2022, by the Honourable Senator Loffreda, concerning access to programs.

Response to the oral question asked in the Senate on June 20, 2022, by the Honourable Senator Plett, concerning passport services.

Response to the oral question asked in the Senate on June 21, 2022, by the Honourable Senator Miville-Dechêne, concerning passport services.

Response to the oral question asked in the Senate on June 21, 2022, by the Honourable Senator Carignan, P.C., concerning passport services.

Response to the oral question asked in the Senate on June 22, 2022, by the Honourable Senator Carignan, P.C., concerning passport services.

(Response to question raised by the Honourable Salma Ataullahjan on December 17, 2021)

We are on the side of Quebecers who are shocked and disappointed that a young teacher can no longer practise her profession because of how she chooses to observe her religion.

Our Government is firmly committed to defending the rights and freedoms protected by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, including the right to freedom of religion and the right to equality. This matter touches on fundamental freedoms and the interpretation and application of the Charter.

We expect this case will be appealed to the Supreme Court of Canada. If that happens, our Government is firmly committed to contributing to the debate, given the broad implications for all Canadians and our need to defend the Charter. We will intervene in this matter at the Supreme Court of Canada.

(Response to question raised by the Honourable Michael L. MacDonald on March 24, 2022)

Thoughts remain with the families of the victims of this horrific tragedy. The Minister of Foreign Affairs has spoken with families of the victims of Flight PS752. The Response Group has determined that further attempts to negotiate with Iran are futile. Canada is now focused on the next steps on this file, while acting in accordance with international law. Canada will not rest until the families get the justice, transparency and accountability from Iran that they deserve.

(Response to question raised by the Honourable Marilou McPhedran on March 31, 2022)

Canada strongly condemns the crimes of the Myanmar military against their own population. Canada was the first country to recognize the crimes perpetrated against the Rohingya as a genocide. To continue to respond to this humanitarian crisis and support accountability for the crimes committed, Budget 2021 allocated $288 million over three years. Canada continues to deliver life-saving humanitarian assistance to crisis-affected populations in Bangladesh and Myanmar. Canada is also intervening jointly with the Dutch in support of The Gambia case against Myanmar for genocide before the International Court of Justice (ICJ).

(Response to question raised by the Honourable Tony Loffreda on June 8, 2022)

To help Indigenous Peoples access federal social benefits, Budget 2018 provided Employment and Social Development Canada (ESDC) with $17.3 million over three years, starting in 2018–19. The 2020 Fall Economic Statement made this funding ongoing. This translates into an annual allocation of approximately $6 million. No additional funding has been provided to ESDC for targeted outreach activities.

The ESDC funding continued previous outreach efforts and enabled the conduct of over 2,400 visits to more than 650 Indigenous communities, resulting in over 25,000 service transactions. The most common transactions were for Social Insurance Numbers, the Canada Pension Plan, Old Age Security and Employment Insurance (EI).

While COVID-19 caused in-person activities to be suspended, a new 1-800 Outreach Support Centre (OSC) was able to continue this work virtually with a focus on EI. A total of 687 Indigenous communities received virtual services in 2020-21. In 2021-22, the OSC fielded 27,250 calls from vulnerable clients, resulting in 31,800 individual service offerings.

ESDC is working on re-establishing in-person outreach activities while maintaining the OSC.

(Response to question raised by the Honourable Donald Neil Plett on June 20, 2022)

Service Canada continues to face a range of interconnected issues, which have affected the timely delivery of passport services to Canadians.

Service Canada has made numerous changes to ensure a better experience. These include a triage system, an online appointment-booking tool and expanded passport pick-up services. Processing hubs were added across the country and the simplified renewal method for adults was expanded to include adults who have had a passport issued in the last 15 years. Service Canada continues to hire employees to process applications. Over 1,900 employees are currently supporting the delivery of passport services. Service Canada implemented a triage system in metropolitan areas to manage lineups and ensure that Canadians with imminent travel requirements receive their passport in time. These measures have been easing the situation.

For the week ending July 31, 2022, nearly 48,000 passports were issued, 96% of those who applied in-person at a passport office received their passports in under 10 business days and 81% of Canadians received their passports in under 40 business days. All passport processing staff have returned to passport offices and processing sites.

Through continued efforts the passport backlog has been stabilized and passport service delays are expected to be gradually reduced.

(Response to question raised by the Honourable Julie Miville-Dechêne on June 21, 2022)

Service Canada has streamlined the in-person application process by implementing triage measures to provide a more intensive, client-specific approach. Before offices open at busier specialized passport sites, increased numbers of managers and executives are speaking directly with clients to determine urgency of travel. Triage measures have been implemented in Richmond, Quebec City, Gatineau, Calgary, Edmonton, Halifax, Montreal, Vancouver, Surrey, and the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area.

Triage methods and timeframes vary by location and are based on volumes and local circumstances. Clients with proof of travel within the following 24 to 48 hours are prioritized, while clients with longer-term travel plans are directed to the most appropriate service channels to ensure their passport needs are met and their travel is not interrupted. This includes the possibility of being asked to visit a Service Canada Centre where they have the staff and technology to offer by-appointment passport services to clients with less urgent situations.

Service Canada is examining and implementing every possibility to expedite intake and processing of passport applications.

Overtime hours are significant, with passport staff working over 6,000 extra hours per week, including weekends. Service Canada has also adjusted hours for clients who cannot be accommodated during regular hours.

(Response to question raised by the Honourable Claude Carignan on June 21, 2022)

Service Canada continues to face a range of interconnected issues, which have affected timely delivery of passport service to Canadians. These include an increase in volume of applications, a shift to mail applications which take more time to process and a large proportion of complex applications.

Service Canada has made a number of changes so that Canadians have a better experience at passport offices. These include a triage system, an online appointment-booking tool and expanded passport pick-up services. Processing hubs were added across the country and the simplified renewal method for adults was expanded to include adults who have had a passport issued in the last 15 years. Service Canada has also implemented a triage system in metropolitan areas to manage lineups and ensure that Canadians with imminent travel requirements receive their passport in time. All of these measures combined have been easing the situation.

Through continued efforts to maximize efficiency, increase resources and streamline processes, the passport backlog has been stabilized and is expected to reduce passport service delays.

(Response to question raised by the Honourable Claude Carignan on June 22, 2022)

Service Canada has streamlined the in-person application process by implementing triage measures to provide a more intensive, client-specific approach. Before offices open at busier specialized passport sites, increased numbers of managers and executives are speaking directly with clients to determine urgency of travel.

Triage methods and timeframes vary by location and are based on volumes and local circumstances. Clients with proof of travel within the following 24 to 48 hours are prioritized, while clients with longer-term travel plans are directed to the most appropriate service channels to ensure their passport needs are met and their travel plan is not interrupted.

Service Canada is examining and implementing every possibility to expedite intake and processing of passport applications. Clients will not be charged any additional fees if a complete application is submitted, and if we do not meet our published service standard. This includes transfer and pick up fees.

In order to protect the privacy and security of clients and staff, as well as ensuring the integrity and security of the services provided, Service Canada does not allow the media, or anyone, to film or take pictures in any Service Canada Centres.

On the Order:

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Dawson, seconded by the Honourable Senator Bovey, for the second reading of Bill C-11, An Act to amend the Broadcasting Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts.

Senator Dupuis: Thank you, Senator MacDonald. Can I ask you to clarify what problem you see? You said that the problems with Bill C-11 are grounded in proposed sections 4.1 and 4.2.

Section 4.1 states, “This Act does not apply in respect of a program that is uploaded to an online undertaking” unless the program is prescribed by regulations made under section 4.‍2, which sets out the criteria and regulations that could apply.

Can you specify or explain again exactly what problem section 4.2 in particular causes with regard to programs that would be excluded under section 4.1?

[English]