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Decentralized Democracy

House Hansard - 301

44th Parl. 1st Sess.
April 17, 2024 02:00PM
Context: House Hansard - 301 - Apr/17/24
Mr. Kristian Firth
  • Apr/17/24 4:02:01 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, can I please have that question repeated?
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The Speaker
  • Apr/17/24 4:02:05 p.m.
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I will stop the clock. The hon. member for Beauport—Limoilou.
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Mrs. Julie Vignola
  • Apr/17/24 4:02:12 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, does the witness believe that public servants complied with the rules, procedures and policies related to their strategic and privileged position within the government apparatus in negotiating contracts for GC Strategies?
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Mr. Kristian Firth
  • Apr/17/24 4:02:38 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, again, without sounding elusive, and that is not why I am here at all, I do not have the answer and cannot comment on that. I am not privy to every meeting that happens and every conversation that happens.
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Mrs. Julie Vignola
  • Apr/17/24 4:02:56 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I understand that the witness is not familiar with the rules of the public service. However, did any public servant with whom he had contact tell him, at any time, that they could not do certain things that did not abide by the rules that apply to public servants?
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Mr. Kristian Firth
  • Apr/17/24 4:03:23 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, no, they did not.
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Mrs. Julie Vignola
  • Apr/17/24 4:03:29 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, it has been noted, particularly by the Auditor General, that people from GC Strategies helped develop the criteria for a contract that they ultimately won. Does the witness believe that any company that participates in developing criteria should withdraw from a call for tenders?
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Mr. Kristian Firth
  • Apr/17/24 4:04:01 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, from previous testimony that came from Amazon and Microsoft last week, I believe it is common practice to offer suggestions, because typically clients are not always best informed when it comes to writing RFPs or putting requirements together, whether it is cloud computing for Amazon or Microsoft. It is common for government officials or technical resources to ask for specific suggestions, understanding what skill sets and what technologies they would have to be privy with to be working on an application or working on projects.
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Mrs. Julie Vignola
  • Apr/17/24 4:04:51 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, based on what I understand from the answers to my last questions, the public service is currently forced, or feels obliged, to seek out the expertise of certain consultants because it cannot even identify or formulate criteria related to its own needs. That indicates a lack of expertise, and a lack of training. In particular, I would add that it makes no sense for a company that worked on selecting the criteria for a bidding process to be allowed to submit a bid. It creates the appearance of collusion, something that public servants, and companies, must absolutely avoid. That should be avoided. I recommend that the process be reviewed.
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Mr. Taylor Bachrach (Skeena—Bulkley Valley, NDP)
  • Apr/17/24 4:06:05 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I too am struck by the historic nature of this moment, and I am keenly aware of our responsibility, which is a sacred responsibility, to not only seek answers on behalf of Canadians but also ensure we are not doing undue harm to the individual who is here before us. We must also ensure that we are conducting ourselves in a way that upholds the integrity, dignity and credibility of this place, which lies at the heart of our democracy. I will certainly try to uphold those values in my questioning. We are here because of the serious allegations and revelations surrounding the procurement and execution of the ArriveCAN app, a piece of technology that incorrectly required thousands of Canadians to quarantine, that cost some $60 million and that was procured in a way that both the Auditor General and the procurement ombudsman have found was highly irregular and likely connected to misconduct on the part of the government officials who were responsible. There are two main questions of substance that I believe we are seeking answers to today. The first dealt with Mr. Firth's misleading of the committee when it came to the question of whether he had met with government officials outside of work. The first time that question was raised at committee, Mr. Firth replied in the negative, saying that he had not met with officials outside of work. He then later provided documentation that showed he had met with three officials at some half a dozen Ottawa restaurants and breweries. Why did he choose to mislead the committee in the first instance?
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Mr. Kristian Firth
  • Apr/17/24 4:08:12 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, again, I am fully endorsing the embellishment and the understanding that there were questions that may have not been answered correctly and the understanding that some of them may have been obtuse. That is why I am here today. I will be answering all questions, just as I have been over the last 45 minutes, honestly and to the best of my knowledge.
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Mr. Taylor Bachrach
  • Apr/17/24 4:08:38 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, the question, as originally asked at committee, was a simple yes or no question: Had the individual met with government officials outside of work? Mr. Firth replied that no, he had not. My question, which was not provided with an answer, was why he chose, in that moment, to mislead the committee.
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Mr. Kristian Firth
  • Apr/17/24 4:09:03 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, at that time, I did not know how many. Rather than giving a fake answer, I did not know exactly how many people I had met with. I have been doing this for 16 years.
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Mr. Taylor Bachrach
  • Apr/17/24 4:09:19 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, the question was not how many government officials or how many times. The question was a yes or no question. Had Mr. Firth met with government officials outside of work? Why did he mislead the committee by answering that question in the negative?
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Mr. Kristian Firth
  • Apr/17/24 4:09:44 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, at that time, I thought I did answer it correctly.
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Mr. Taylor Bachrach
  • Apr/17/24 4:09:51 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I have a very difficult time accepting that answer and believing that answer to be the truth. The other question of substance that I believe we are here to seek an answer to is with regard to which government official Mr. Firth discussed the criteria for a contract that was eventually awarded to him. I believe he has provided that name as being Diane Daly. Can Mr. Firth confirm that this is indeed the government official with whom he discussed the contract criteria?
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Mr. Kristian Firth
  • Apr/17/24 4:10:25 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I can confirm that.
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Mr. Taylor Bachrach
  • Apr/17/24 4:10:31 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I think, for Canadians watching, this is really the most troubling of the allegations, that Mr. Firth, on behalf of his company, was involved in setting the rules and the criteria for a multi-million-dollar contract that, strangely enough, his firm was eventually awarded with. To most Canadians, this would look like, and I will not exaggerate, a rigged system that is designed to benefit Ottawa insiders and make it more difficult for entrepreneurs and small businesses in this country to do work for the government. Does Mr. Firth not agree?
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Mr. Kristian Firth
  • Apr/17/24 4:11:13 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, the RFP for the contract in question had over 220 requirements involved. We offered up three suggestions, with which PSPC still deemed 40 qualified vendors could respond to, and of which 10 showed interest. I do not see that as overly restrictive.
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Mr. Taylor Bachrach
  • Apr/17/24 4:11:36 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, both the Auditor General and the procurement ombudsman found that the criteria for that contract were set in such a restrictive way that only GC Strategies could have been selected as the successful bidder. Does Mr. Firth not agree that this process is profoundly unfair?
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