44th Parl. 1st Sess.
March 20, 2024 02:00PM
- Mar/20/24 10:37:02 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, members have been called to account before many times, on various sides, for suggesting that members of the House have sympathy with foreign authoritarian regimes.
The member who just spoke made an outrageous, verifiably false and unparliamentary claim. He accused members of being part of a so-called pro-Putin wing. He was not called to order by you, Mr. Chair. Now the Liberal member is continuing to cast aspersions.
Frankly, it is disgusting to see what the Liberals are doing here. They are trying to foment division when we should be trying to work together on this issue. I would ask you, Mr. Chair, to call these members to account for their unparliamentary language and their disgraceful conduct during this debate tonight.
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- Mar/20/24 10:38:00 p.m.
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The Speaker has ruled on this. He has mentioned that members should be judicious in how we are being recognized here in Canada. What we do here is seen across the world. Saying that one is part of a certain group is incorrect and, I would suggest, unparliamentary in this case.
Therefore, I would ask the hon. member to hold back on the rhetoric a bit, rephrase and try to stay away from that.
On the same point of order, the hon. parliamentary secretary.
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- Mar/20/24 10:38:43 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, we have to be very careful that we do not start saying that members cannot say a political entity in the House is affiliated with another type of organization. That is often referenced in many different ways. I am just raising that. I do not believe the member has to apologize—
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- Mar/20/24 10:39:08 p.m.
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When someone in the House is saying that someone is standing with Putin, that is probably a little too far out on the edge, as the Speaker has ruled.
The hon. member for Etobicoke Centre.
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- Mar/20/24 10:39:24 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I think if you check Hansard, you will find that I did not speak about individual members. I said that there is a pro-Putin wing in the Conservative Party, and that is not—
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- Mar/20/24 10:39:40 p.m.
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I think that is exactly what has been brought up here.
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- Mar/20/24 10:40:16 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, he was saying exactly the same thing about the NDP, so he should have to apologize.
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- Mar/20/24 10:40:28 p.m.
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The member for Miramichi—Grand Lake was asked to apologize for saying something very similar to, I think, what the hon. member for Edmonton Strathcona said.
The hon. member should retract that and apologize for it. Then we can go on and ask questions.
The hon. member for Etobicoke Centre.
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- Mar/20/24 10:40:39 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, what I said was fact. What I said was not in breach of the Speaker's ruling—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh!
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- Mar/20/24 10:40:42 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I will not apologize for speaking the truth.
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- Mar/20/24 10:40:42 p.m.
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I have asked you to retract it. Please retract it and apologize, or your evening is going to come to an end.
The hon. member for Etobicoke Centre.
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- Mar/20/24 10:41:01 p.m.
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I will make this easy. The hon. member will not be recognized until he apologizes.
We will go on to the next speaker, the hon. member for Jonquière.
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- Mar/20/24 10:41:14 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I would just like clarification, because this could set a regrettable precedent.
If any member of this Parliament told NDP members that they are pro-Palestinian, would that member be silenced and accused of using unparliamentary language? If any one of us told other members that they are pro-Israeli, would that be cause for expulsion?
We need to be careful about using ideologies. I certainly understand that, but sometimes we have to take controversial positions. Some members of the Conservative Party may have controversial views; indeed, one might say that some of them are pro-life and others are pro-choice.
We would be playing a very dangerous game if we were to expel MPs for saying things that align with ideological leanings expressed in the House.
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- Mar/20/24 10:42:14 p.m.
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I believe the Speaker's ruling had to do with the hon. member for Miramichi—Grand Lake saying that the New Democrats support Hamas. That is very close to what the hon. member said this evening. I would therefore like the hon. member to withdraw his remarks. If he declines to do so, I will go to the next person on the list of those who want to speak.
The hon. member for Edmonton Strathcona.
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- Mar/20/24 10:42:54 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I just want to illustrate that when the Conservatives accused members of the House of supporting Hamas, that was a very different thing, because Hamas is an illegal terrorist organization. We actually do not have that designation right now, and maybe we should, for the Russian Federation, and we certainly do not have it for the People's Party.
I think we can say that many members of the Conservative Party have shown they are much closer in values to the PPC than they are to perhaps a progressive conservative movement. I think it is fair for the member to say that. However, when there is a member who calls somebody out for being associated with an illegal terrorist organization, that is a very different thing.
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- Mar/20/24 10:43:52 p.m.
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Ultimately, it is this: When something is causing disorder in the House, we have to find a mechanism in which to put that disorder aside so that we can continue the debate that is scheduled for this evening. The statement was causing tremendous disorder, just like when the hon. member for Miramichi—Grand Lake did something very similar.
The hon. member for Drummond.
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- Mar/20/24 10:44:24 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, this is turning into a debate as interesting as it is worrisome. On the one hand, you referred to a member's remarks causing disorder in the House. Any statement, whether members agree with it or not, can cause disorder in the House. Is the Chair going to crack down on every statement that causes disorder in the House? That is my first point.
My second point is that there is currently a conflict between Ukraine and Russia. Russia launched a massive invasion of Ukraine, an action we vigorously condemn. We support Ukraine, and I believe the entire House of Commons supports Ukraine. That does not mean it is illegal, unthinkable or impossible to hold a different opinion. People could, quite legitimately, support Putin and be pro-Russian. That is not a crime. It is not an opinion I share or agree with. I can see why Conservative members would take offence at being associated with that. I can see why the member for Etobicoke Centre might consider a particular wing of the Conservative Party to be pro-Russian. That does not make saying so unparliamentary.
I think that, as my colleague from Jonquière pointed out earlier, we are walking a very thin line right now. I feel this could set a very dangerous precedent. Freedom of expression is at stake. Freedom of opinion is at stake. I think the Chair will have to consider that when ruling on this point of order.
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- Mar/20/24 10:45:51 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, let us be very clear about the precedent that was set by the Speaker's decision with respect to the member for Miramichi—Grand Lake. When there are regimes that are clearly deplored by all parliamentarians, by all Canadians, and that are subject in some way to sanctions by the Government of Canada, then casting those kinds of aspersions to say that members in the House are affiliated with or are supportive of those regimes has been deemed to be unparliamentary. Of course, it is the sort of the thing that someone has the freedom to say outside the House in the same way that someone has the freedom to call another member a “liar” outside the House. However, members do not have unlimited ability to say whatever they want while still being within the parameters of what is allowable under parliamentary procedure.
The Speaker ruled, and the Speaker has ruled in similar cases, that making the direct, clearly false claim that members of the House are affiliated with or supportive of regimes that are deplored by all parliamentarians and all Canadians, such as the Putin regime or Hamas, is deemed unparliamentary. The Chair is now applying the precedent that was set to the member for Etobicoke Centre, who claims to care about partisan unity on this issue but clearly does not. He is clearly trying to drive a partisan agenda for electoral purposes, not for principled reasons, which is unparliamentary. The member for Etobicoke Centre has rightly been called to order, and he should rethink the approach he is taking if he actually cares about advancing the cause of Ukraine.
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- Mar/20/24 10:47:42 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I certainly do not want to repeat what has already been said, but I do want to raise my concern as well that there is a bit of a precedent here that we need to be worried about.
There are a lot of big feelings in the House, but the problem is that it should not be those who scream the loudest or light their hair on fire who get the most attention. When one is in a grocery store and a kid is on the floor kicking and screaming, one does not feed that fire. I would ask that we be more cautious, absolutely, with the words we use, but it should not be those who kick and scream the loudest who get their way all the time.
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- Mar/20/24 10:48:34 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I would like to make one last comment. I understand that we all want to get to bed tonight. However, we have heard comments that I find worrisome, for example, when people say that if all parliamentarians are of one opinion or if all Canadians are of one opinion, other opinions should not be allowed. We nearly got to that point.
When there is an international conflict like the one between Ukraine and Russia or the one between Israel and Palestine, I think that all opinions should be heard in the House. The same thing goes for internal matters. All opinions should be heard. We are here to debate things. We might take offence. We can shout all we want, but no opinions on an international conflict should be considered unparliamentary.
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