SoVote

Context: House Hansard - 292 - Mar/20/24

Mr. Charlie Angus (Timmins—James Bay, NDP)

Mar/20/24 7:00:02 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I will keep my remarks short. I want to bring to light that I have been involved in a number of committees where we were at the line of an issue of contempt. It is important to put on the record what was explained to us in committee, that we are not a court of law. We may be really angry at government. We may be demanding witnesses. However, we have to do it in a judicious manner, and if there is an issue of contempt, it has to come to the House. We have been in situations in which we knew we were not getting truthful answers from witnesses. My colleague and I were involved with one, with a certain group of brothers and their chief financial officer. We decided at that moment to actually not go that way, because we had gotten as far as we could as a parliamentary committee, and we felt the evidence stood. However, the principle of parliamentarians being able to take this to the House has to be protected and preserved. It does not matter when the last time it happened was. What matters is that we have the obligation and the right and the power, when people are being dishonest and not telling the truth to committees, to bring it to the House, whether or not the government at the time likes it. These are tools that parliamentarians have. Again, we are not a court of law, but we get evidence that we present to Parliament so that Parliament can make decisions and, if something is wrong, it will not happen again. I trust that the Speaker is going to be very careful and judicious here with respect to the importance of preserving that right of parliamentarians to do their job and not be inhibited just because someone does not believe they are obligated to answer questions. They are obligated to answer questions when it is in the interests of the Canadian public.

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The Speaker

Mar/20/24 7:01:47 p.m.
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I would like to thank the hon. member for Timmins—James Bay and the hon. member for Saanich—Gulf Islands for their interventions, as well as all members. In particular, I would like to thank the member for Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes for bringing forward a very clear presentation. The member for Winnipeg North requested it, as did the member for La Prairie and the member for Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, who have requested the participation of other members of the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates. I will wait. I hope that these interventions will come fairly quickly. I must say that the Chair is rather inclined to do everything possible to safeguard the right of members of the House to receive answers from witnesses who appear before a committee. Following the intervention of the member for Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, I will hope that the members of the government operations committee will quickly intervene and that we will hear from members from the Bloc and from the NDP, as well as from the Liberals, who indicated that they would like to come back on this issue. I guess I am kind of tipping my hand; I am quite disposed to the motion. I look forward to an intervention as soon as possible, so that we can dispense with this matter quickly. I wish to inform the House that because of the delay, pursuant to Standing Order 30(7), the period provided for Private Members' Business is cancelled. The order is therefore deferred to a future sitting. Pursuant to order made on Monday, March 18, the House will now resolve itself into committee of the whole to consider Motion No. 36 under Government Business.

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The Speaker

Mar/20/24 7:04:52 p.m.
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Before we begin this evening's debate, I would like to remind hon. members how the proceedings will unfold. Each member speaking will be allotted 10 minutes for debate, followed by 10 minutes for questions and comments. Pursuant to order made on Monday, March 18, members may divide their time with another member. The time provided for the debate may be extended beyond four hours, as needed, to include a minimum of 12 periods of 20 minutes each. The Chair will receive no quorum calls, dilatory motions or requests for unanimous consent. We will now begin tonight's take-note debate.

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Hon. Diane Lebouthillier

Mar/20/24 7:05:57 p.m.
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moved: That this committee take note of the Canada-Ukraine relationship and the newly signed strategic security partnership.

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Mr. James Maloney (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.)

Mar/20/24 7:05:57 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time this evening. I rise on a topic that I wish I did not have to address. Two years ago, Vladimir Putin launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine and, with it, unleashed an attack on democracy, freedom and the rules-based international order. Despite Russia's relentless assault, Ukrainians are standing strong, and Canada will stand with them for as long as it takes. The war continues to touch all of us and the ties between our two countries are strong. We all have friends of Ukrainian heritage. Not only do I have a large Ukrainian community in my constituency of Etobicoke—Lakeshore, but many Ukrainian cultural and religious organizations, as well as the Ukrainian consulate, are located in my riding. I want them to know that I will not abandon them. Canada's support for Ukraine is ongoing and unwavering. I would like to underline some of the supports. Since the beginning of 2022, Canada has committed over $13.3 billion in funding to support Ukraine. This includes $4 billion in military assistance, such as M777 Howitzers, Leopard 2 main battle tanks, armoured combat support vehicles, ammunition, high-resolution drone cameras, thermal clothing, body armour, fuel and more; $7.4 billion in financial support; $352.5 million in humanitarian assistance, including support for emergency health interventions, protection services and essentials such as shelter, water, sanitation and food; and $186 million in development assistance and funds for the Canada-International Finance Corporation's facility for resilient food systems. We will also contribute $198 million in security and stabilization assistance. Canadian Armed Forces members are supporting the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the United Kingdom and Poland under Operation Unifier, providing training on a range of military skills. Between 2015 and 2024, Canada trained more than 40,000 members of the Armed Forces of Ukraine as part of this operation. They have also been assisting with the delivery of military aid for Ukraine from Canada and on behalf of our allies and partners. Our support continues. Last month, Prime Minister Trudeau and the President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, held a bilateral meeting to discuss— Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

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The Speaker

Mar/20/24 7:08:45 p.m.
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It is very important for the member not to refer to sitting members by their names, but by either their titles or their ridings.

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Mr. James Maloney

Mar/20/24 7:08:57 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I apologize. Our Prime Minister and the President of Ukraine held a bilateral meeting to discuss the situation on the ground and Ukraine's needs over the coming months. The two leaders signed a new, historic agreement on security co-operation between Canada and Ukraine to establish a strategic security partnership. The agreement builds on the G7 joint declaration of support for Ukraine and outlines key, long-term security commitments for Canada to continue supporting Ukraine as it defends its sovereignty and territorial integrity, protects its people and rebuilds its economy for the future. As part of this commitment, Canada will provide just over $3 billion in critical financial and military support to Ukraine in 2024. In addition, the Prime Minister announced new support for Ukraine's resilience and recovery efforts. This includes $75 million in peace and security assistance, which includes demining, cyber-support and intelligence support; and cultural support for the completion of the National Museum of the Holodomor-Genocide in Kyiv, helping preserve the memory of victims and survivors of the Holodomor, a systemic and heinous campaign of deliberate starvation by the Soviet regime that killed millions across Ukraine in 1932 and 1933. The Prime Minister also announced the allocation of funding, up to $39 million, for development assistance to provide access to essential mental health services for vulnerable populations, to help build food systems that are more resilient and to support efforts by local communities toward reconstruction and recovery. There is over $22 million in humanitarian assistance to support trusted United Nations and Red Cross partners in delivering critical assistance, including emergency health interventions, protection services, shelter, water, sanitation and food, as well as the promotion of respect for international humanitarian law. There is also over $18 million in peace, security and stabilization assistance to support projects. For many Canadians, and especially those of Ukrainian heritage, it is important now more than ever that Ukraine continues to receive the support it needs to fight the war. I was proud to host our Minister of National Defence in my community of Etobicoke—Lakeshore last month to announce that we are providing Ukraine with the drones it needs to protect its troops and the country. Of course, there is the Canada-Ukraine free trade agreement. Yesterday, I was pleased to join my colleague from Etobicoke Centre and Ihor Michalchyshyn to witness the Senate pass the agreement, despite opposition from the official opposition in the House and the official opposition in the Senate. It was a fundamental way to show solidarity with Ukraine, and I cannot believe the official opposition did not support it. It is shameful. In short, the federal government stands in full solidarity with the people of Ukraine. There are so many more measures I could discuss, but the bottom line is that we are here, we are with them and we will support them until this is over.

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Hon. Michael Chong (Wellington—Halton Hills, CPC)

Mar/20/24 7:12:17 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I listened to my hon. colleague's speech and want to thank him for his support for Ukraine. We had the Ukrainian ambassador in front of the foreign affairs committee this afternoon. She gave us some very concerning statistics: Ukraine is facing six to seven times the number of shells daily from Russia that Ukraine is directing toward Russia. They have a dire need for 155-millimetre ammunition. There was a discussion at the committee today about the need for increased ammunition. I know the Government of Canada has recently made announcements about shell production. Could the member tell us what the government's plans are with respect to increasing Canada's 155-millimetre shell production in order to contribute not only to Canada's security but to that of Ukraine?

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Mr. James Maloney

Mar/20/24 7:13:20 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, Canada's support since the outset of this awful situation has been unconditional and unequivocal. I was not at the committee today to hear the ambassador's testimony, but I can say that her position, which has been unequivocal, is that Canada should support the Canada-Ukraine free trade agreement. As for the specifics of the member's question on ammunition, I would be happy to speak to him after. I would be happy to try to find that specific information. I do not want to stand before the House and pretend I have specifics that I do not have in answer to a question.

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Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP)

Mar/20/24 7:14:10 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, like my colleague from the Conservatives, I was at the foreign affairs committee this afternoon as we met with Ukraine's ambassador to Canada. One of the questions I asked her, which I will ask the member as he is a member of the government, was around the loopholes we see within our arms export regime. One thing that I think we all learned in November 2023 was that detonators were going through Kyrgyzstan and being used in Russian mines against Ukrainian people. The last thing I think Canadians want to know is that Canadian parts and components are being used in the very weapons that are being used against Ukrainians. The New Democrats have long called for the closing of loopholes within our arms regime, and the government has not taken steps to do that. Is there any plan from the government to stop the loopholes that allow dual-use goods to be made into the weapons being used against our allies?

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Mr. James Maloney

Mar/20/24 7:15:17 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I thank the member for her continued support for Ukraine in this awful situation. Again, I was not at the committee this afternoon. However, Canada works day in and day out. The Prime Minister, the defence minister and the foreign affairs minister are in regular, daily contact with their counterparts in Ukraine to make sure the measures that need to be taken are taken, including closing loopholes and preventing the types of activities the member is talking about. I can assure her that the federal government is taking every step and leaving no stone unturned.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.)

Mar/20/24 7:16:07 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, the member made reference to the Canada-Ukraine free trade agreement, an agreement that no doubt sends a very strong and powerful message to the world regarding Ukraine's solidarity movement. One of the big asks was how we could help Ukraine into the future. That is why the President of Ukraine came to Canada to meet with the Prime Minister. This trade agreement is more than just a physical agreement. There is another aspect to it that I think speaks to our special relationship and being there for Ukraine. I wonder if the member could expand upon the importance of that agreement.

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Mr. James Maloney

Mar/20/24 7:17:03 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, it is now, it is tomorrow and it is into the future. When this war comes to an end, Ukraine is going to have to be rebuilt. Canada is there with Ukraine now and will be with it then. The free trade agreement is a step in that direction so we will be ready when the time comes. I speak to community members in Etobicoke—Lakeshore and across the country regularly, and they were enthused and excited and wanted to get this deal passed. Unfortunately, I spent more time answering these questions: Why is the opposition not supporting the free trade agreement? Why is the House not unanimously supporting the free trade agreement? I cannot account for others. All I can account for is our side of the House, and we are there and we will be there after this is over.

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Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber River—Black Creek, Lib.)

Mar/20/24 7:17:50 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, it is a real pleasure tonight to have a few minutes to stand and talk about the relationship between Canada and Ukraine. The fact that the free trade agreement was passed yesterday is one of the additional symbolic things we can be doing to show our support for Ukraine. Once the world witnessed the brutal unprovoked attack on democracy, freedom and the rules-based international order when Vladimir Putin launched a full-scale attack on Ukraine, not many people believed that Ukraine's capital would stand strong longer than two or three days. However, two years later, it is clear that their remarkable strength, resilience and love for their country made Ukrainians known around the world as members of a nation of the brave, and Ukraine has become a symbol of a steadfast force. I am proud that Canada and our government stand alongside international partners with unwavering support for Ukraine. On the second anniversary of the full-scale invasion of Ukraine by Russia, our Prime Minister and President Zelenskyy signed a new, historic agreement on security co-operation between Canada and Ukraine to establish a strategic security partnership. This agreement is intended to shore up Ukraine's security and outlines key, long-term security commitments for Canada to continue supporting Ukraine as it defends its sovereignty and territorial integrity, protects its people and rebuilds its economy for the future. As part of that commitment, Canada will provide over $3 billion in critical financial and military support to Ukraine in 2024. Our government has stood with Ukraine since day one of Russia's illegal invasion, and we will continue to do so until Ukraine and the Ukrainian people are free once again. The signing of the new security agreement is yet another testament to Canada's unwavering support for Ukraine. Canada will continue to support Ukraine's implementation of the deep and comprehensive reforms necessary for full integration into the EU and NATO, and we commend Ukraine for the significant reform that has been made to date. It is clear that defence and security are the number one priorities for Ukraine right now, and our prayers are with all of the people in Ukraine. The rebuilding and recovery of Ukraine are another highly important aspect to its agenda. To this end, I am thrilled to acknowledge the incredibly important milestone that Canada and Ukraine achieved last night, as I mentioned earlier: the royal assent of the modernized Canada-Ukraine free trade agreement. As chair of the international trade committee, it was great to work with all members of the committee to examine it, process it and get it through committee and into the House. It is disappointing that the Conservatives turned their backs on Ukraine by voting against the free trade deal, but I need to emphasize that this side of the House will continue to stand with Ukraine in our words, in our actions and with our votes. A modernized CUFTA marks an important milestone in the Canadian-Ukrainian relationship, one that will support our people, our workers and our businesses for years to come. Sectors of strategic importance to Ukraine's recovery include infrastructure, renewable energy, financial services, and oil and gas, which are all areas where Canada has strengths. Even more so, CUFTA will help make the reconstruction process transparent and sustainable. This agreement is the first FTA addressing anti-corruption provisions. According to the latest estimates by the Ukrainian side, since February 2022, more than 37% of the total damage in Ukraine has fallen on residential buildings, another 24% on infrastructure and 8% on industrial assets. It is no surprise that Ukrainian and international analysts say that Ukraine will turn into the largest construction site in the world after the war ends. This free trade agreement sets the foundation on which Canadian and Ukrainian businesses can work together in the reconstruction of Ukraine and underpins the long-term economic relationship between our two countries. Our government will continue making sure Ukraine has Canada's back in times of need. Canada will stand with Ukraine, as I indicated earlier, with whatever it takes, for as long as it takes. Slava Ukraini. I am thankful for the opportunity to speak and to share time with the previous member.

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Mr. Damien Kurek (Battle River—Crowfoot, CPC)

Mar/20/24 7:22:51 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I know and respect the member's stance on Taiwan and some of the work she has done However, I have been so concerned that some of the actions that the Liberals take, purportedly in support of Ukraine, do not line up with the tangible action that Ukraine has asked for. Examples are sending turbines back to Russia to pump Russian gas for sale in Europe, funding Putin's war in Ukraine, sending detonators in that direction and sending missiles over, which could easily be done. There was a direct request. Certainly, we were disappointed that the Liberals put a carbon tax mechanism into the free trade agreement. This brought a domestic political issue into a debate that had a significant deal of cross-partisan support. It is very unfortunate that they would politicize that. What is also unfortunate is that, quite often, actions do not line up with the words that members of the Liberal Party speak when it comes to ensuring that they are truly supporting Ukraine. Could the member elaborate on how they take tangible action to support the people of Ukraine, which includes energy security?

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Hon. Judy A. Sgro

Mar/20/24 7:24:13 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I thank my hon. colleague for his comment and his interest. Politics gets in the way of a lot of things. At the end of the day, I think every single person in this House wants to see Ukraine do well. As chair of the international trade committee, when we dealt with the Canada free trade agreement with Ukraine, it was an enormous pleasure to be able to talk with a variety of people who are already in Ukraine starting the rebuild that is happening. As far as moving forward, we talk about a carbon tax that my colleague could not resist throwing out there. Ukraine had a carbon tax way before we even talked about it. I think Canada is way behind. The United States and all the other areas have had a carbon tax for years. Canada is just catching up now, and Ukraine is an example of how it functions well.

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Mr. Martin Champoux (Drummond, BQ)

Mar/20/24 7:25:18 p.m.
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Madam Chair, as a member of the Canada-Ukraine Parliamentary Friendship Group, this week, I had the pleasure of speaking with French President Macron's special envoy for Ukraine. As part of those very interesting and meaningful discussions, we talked about how Canada and other countries have been somewhat lazy lately when it comes to providing help and support to Ukraine. We talked about the post-conflict recovery, obviously, but we also talked about the current situation. It seems to me that, when President Macron announced France's strong support for Ukraine a few days ago, he was sending a message to the international community. I think that we should consider that message, understand it and acknowledge the fact that we need to step up our efforts. We need to do more to help Ukraine get through this conflict and defeat Russia as quickly as possible, so that we can start rebuilding Ukraine and its economy. We need to allow our domestic investors to establish economic partnerships with Ukraine as quickly as possible. I would like to hear my colleague's thoughts on that.

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Hon. Judy A. Sgro

Mar/20/24 7:26:41 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I have to say that, when this war started, I was so impressed by that countries all around the world that pledged their support and stood beside Ukraine. What has happened in the last six months, with the unexpected holdup in the U.S. with the House of Representatives, is that the funding Ukraine needs has still not been approved. If we really support it, as Canada has done, we need to put our money on the table and continue to be as supportive today as we were when this war broke out.

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Hon. Michael Chong (Wellington—Halton Hills, CPC)

Mar/20/24 7:27:20 p.m.
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Madam Chair, we are here this evening to take part in a debate on the Canada-Ukraine relationship and the new strategic partnership between Canada and Ukraine. I want to say clearly, at the beginning of this take-note debate, that Conservatives support the newly agreed to Canada-Ukraine strategic security partnership. We have long supported Ukraine. We did this well before the war in Ukraine began, started by President Putin's illegal invasion in 2014. On December 2, 1991, Canada became the first western country to recognize Ukraine's independence from the Soviet Union, under then Conservative prime minister Brian Mulroney. The late Brian Mulroney was recognized this week in the House for his great foreign policy accomplishments with then external affairs minister Joe Clark. It was under Prime Minister Harper's leadership that Conservatives first negotiated the Canada-Ukraine Free Trade Agreement, the first free trade agreement between Canada and Ukraine. This deepened trade and investment relations between the two countries. The trade agreement removed tariffs from 86% of Canada's exports, with the remaining tariffs being phased out over the following seven years. This allowed for stronger exports of agricultural goods to and from Ukraine. It was under Prime Minister Harper that Operation Unifier was started. That was a significant operation that was done jointly with the United Kingdom, and it was critical in preparing the Armed Forces of Ukraine for Russia's illegal invasion. In fact, my hon. colleague who just spoke in the House referenced that many were surprised about how Ukraine stood up to Russia's second illegal invasion in February 2022; many expected Ukraine's armed forces to collapse in the face of the Russian invasion. In fact, they did not collapse, in large part because of Operation Unifier, which began in 2015. It was also Prime Minister Harper who led the charge at the G8, which no longer exists, to expel Russia as a member. This turned it into the G7. We all remember that famous video of Prime Minister Harper confronting President Putin on camera when they met in Australia, telling him he needed to “get out of Ukraine”. These are some things that Conservatives have done in the past to support Ukraine. In opposition, as we have been since 2015, we have continued that support. We have continually called on the government to support Ukraine and to provide more support, particularly military support. We have largely supported the government's initiatives with respect to Ukraine over the last two years. Long before Russia's war on Ukraine began in February 2022, we had called on the government to provide more lethal military equipment to Ukraine. It was not until February 14, 2022, a mere 10 days before the invasion began, that the government heeded our call. It then reversed its decision not to provide lethal military equipment and started to provide that equipment. Since February 2022, we have called on the government to provide surplus light armoured vehicles from the Canadian Armed Forces and role 3 mobile hospitals. Recently, we have also called on the government to provide the NASAMS air defence system, as well as the CRV7 rockets, of which there are 83,000 in surplus in the Canadian Armed Forces. Ukraine has indicated that it wants and could use them. The government could provide these four things immediately to support Ukraine: the surplus light armoured vehicles, the role 3 mobile hospitals, the 83,000 rockets and the NASAMS air defence system. We have been calling on the government to do these things because we believe Ukraine needs additional military support. We have also been calling on the government to increase arms production in Canada, and in particular, the production of munitions. The NATO alliance and Ukraine, beyond that, are in desperate need of 155-millimetre shells. It has been assessed that Russia has produced millions of similar types of shells and that the alliance is desperately underproducing these shells. The government recently announced that it has looked at increasing shell production in Canada. Conservatives believe the government needs to do that expeditiously to meet not only Ukraine's defence needs but also our own here in Canada. I will go back to the strategic security partnership that was just agreed to by the Government of Canada and the Government of Ukraine, formally titled “Agreement on security cooperation between Canada and Ukraine”. There are two clauses in that agreement, in particular, that Conservatives support. Section I is titled “Resilience of Energy and other Critical Infrastructure”. That part of the agreement reads: Acknowledging that energy supply security remains crucial for Ukraine’s resilience, and building upon existing support for Ukraine’s energy infrastructure from the G7 and others, Canada will continue to seek to support Ukraine’s overall energy sector with a special focus on nuclear safety and security and clean energy transition. We support that; one thing we think Canada should be doing to support Ukraine and counter Russia is exporting clean liquefied natural gas, not only to displace Russian liquefied natural gas in western Europe and in Ukraine, as well as liquefied natural gas among other democratic allies, but also to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. A kilowatt hour of electricity produced by coal-fired plants produces double the greenhouse gas emissions that a plant fired by natural gas does. We can meet our security and defence goals in co-operation with Ukraine and, at the same time, help reduce global emissions. About a fifth of all global emissions are produced from coal-fired electricity plants. If we could eliminate those in the next 10 years, we could cut global emissions, just on that alone, by 10%. The technology to replace coal-fired electricity plants with LNG or with natural gas plants is decades old. It is easy to do. Ontario did it when it closed down the Nanticoke coal plant some years ago and replaced it with natural gas-fired plants throughout the province of Ontario. The other section we like in this agreement is section N, titled “Compensation for Losses, Injuries and Damages Caused by Russian Aggression”. We like it because we have long called for Canada to lead an effort, which we have suggested should be at the G7, to repurpose some 300 billion U.S. dollars in Russian assets that have been seized by western democracies. When the war broke out two years ago, scores of Russian assets were seized by western governments in order to punish Russia for its illegal invasion of Ukraine in February 2022. Those assets remain seized, but we need to take the next step and repurpose them for the reconstruction of the infrastructure in Ukraine, which has been much damaged by Russian aggression. About $200 billion of those assets rest in Europe. Canada has strong diplomatic ties to many countries in Europe; it has strong ties with the European Union, NATO member countries and individual member states. We should be using this diplomatic capacity to come to an understanding among the western alliance that we are going to repurpose the $300 billion in assets to create a Marshall-type recovery plan for Ukraine. Thus, when this war ends, the people of Ukraine can rebuild their infrastructure, join the community of democracies and rebuild their lives.

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Mr. Ken Hardie (Fleetwood—Port Kells, Lib.)

Mar/20/24 7:37:29 p.m.
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Madam Chair, for the people watching this debate this evening and for the record, I want to respond to a question that came up earlier with respect to Canada's provision of artillery shells to Ukraine. From our own stocks and from other acquisitions, we have donated over 40,000 155-millimetre shells, but we are also currently involved in an effort sponsored by the Czech Republic to source 800,000 shells for Ukraine. Our contribution for that will be $40 million.

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