44th Parl. 1st Sess.
October 26, 2022 02:00PM
- Oct/26/22 4:52:14 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-9
Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Fundy Royal, and my critic, for his question. It is an important one.
Obviously, our hearts go out to the Bosmas, to the victims of the Quebec City mosque massacre and others who have been impacted by this ruling by the Supreme Court.
I remind the hon. member that, as the Attorney General, we defended the previous legislation in front of the Supreme Court, allowing judges the discretion to have consecutive sentences and building our argument on that. That argument was rejected. It is not that the sentencing was changed; these people are still serving consecutive sentences, but what the court has added is that there is a possibility of parole at various points in time.
I would remind the House that eligibility for parole is not the same as parole. A life sentence is a long time, and a parole hearing, yes, is still there. I know that has a negative impact on the families if they choose to come and testify again. It was a nine to nothing decision, which was a serious statement by the Supreme Court of Canada.
We will work with victims to support them. We have recently appointed a new ombudsperson to help, although the office remained open during the period of time we were searching to fill that role, and I think we can move forward in supporting victims, but recognizing the very clear ruling of the Supreme Court.
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- Oct/26/22 4:54:35 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-9
Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my hon. colleague, the parliamentary secretary, for all the work that he does in helping to support not only me in my role as Minister of Justice, but also all colleagues through the justice committee and his interactions with colleagues, which I think colleagues on the other side of the House will unanimously say is positive.
This bill is about judges' maintaining their independence but also maintaining the ability to discipline themselves in cases where the behaviour of a judge will bring the administration of justice into disrepute. The legislation itself was 50 years old. It was taken on by the Canadian Judicial Council, the council of all the chief justices of federally appointed courts across Canada, and reformed. A process was created that was not only fair in terms of hearing all sides, but also streamlined in terms of its appeal routes.
We have seen very recently a case in which a judge fought tooth and nail and sought judicial review at every step of the way, costing a lot of money and a lot of time. Then, before the House had the opportunity to censure that judge, he resigned with his pension.
Therefore, we have a more streamlined process, a fair process and one with clear routes of appeal. It is designed by justices who, quite frankly, were fed up that their reputation was being brought into disrepute, so we have a better system, a less costly system and a fairer system. For that reason, it is important. It was in front of the Senate in the previous Parliament. Senators made some minor changes to the bill, technical changes that are very acceptable and have now taken their place in the new iteration of the bill.
It is long overdue. The justices want it. The Canadian Judicial Council asked us again this fall to get it going, so here we are.
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- Oct/26/22 4:58:00 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-9
Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for her passion and her principle. It is a principle I agree with.
There comes a time when there is not the level of co-operation needed in the House on a variety of different bills, and in order to better serve Canadians we need to set limits on debate. When debate becomes just repeating the same thing over and over again on a variety of different bills, when the opposition is opposing simply to oppose rather than to be constructive, then we are here, using time allocation as a mechanism. I do not like it either. On the other hand, I see the need to get this bill done. The chief justice has come out publicly, as have other chief justices.
We saw the time and costs that were involved in the case the hon. member referred to. The bill is something that all or most of us will agree on and that we ought to pass quickly. I implore our colleagues to do just that.
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- Oct/26/22 5:00:18 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-9
Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his work on the justice committee and on justice issues generally. I recognize the sincere place from which this question comes.
I have always said publicly that I am never closed to a good idea. That being said, the margin for manoeuvre in a nine to nothing Supreme Court of Canada decision, which is very clear, is pretty minimal. There are a lot of needles that would have to be threaded in order for that kind of proposition to be possible.
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- Oct/26/22 5:02:02 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-9
Mr. Speaker, I am not always privy to the same information the House leaders or parliamentary secretaries to the House leaders are privy to.
What I can say is that in my previous life I was a university professor, and we had debates around the table in a variety of different contexts, whether it be the classroom or a seminar or a faculty council. We often would say to each other, do not repeat what someone has said. We should add what we have to say, add what is new, add what is different and give a gloss, but if we are just agreeing with someone, we should just say we agree with X or Y.
We do not do that often enough in the House. The phenomenon that the hon. member points to is real, with people getting up and repeating the same, often pre-written speeches over and over again. That leads us to a point at which we are not serving Canadians anymore. We are not adding. That is not a debate, in any sense of the word. That is just talking, and it is talking meaninglessly, in a sense. I am not saying the words are not meaningful, but someone else has already said it and it has already been recorded into the Hansard.
We are here today because that has happened far too often. All sides are guilty of it but, in particular, in this case, the opposition often uses this as a tactic simply to slow things down for the purpose of slowing things down.
It is frustrating. It is frustrating for Canadians. It is frustrating for judges, who would like to be able to get their house in order in terms of their own discipline, but are having to wait longer than they should for a bill that ought to be fairly straightforward.
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- Oct/26/22 5:04:26 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-9
Mr. Speaker, for the record, on this bill, we actually introduced it in the Senate, as we had done in the previous Parliament, because we thought that was an appropriate place in order to manage our time efficiently. However, we had a ruling from the Speaker that it had to be introduced here because of the financial impact it might have. That explains the delay: We tried to introduce it in the other place before we introduced it here.
That being said, we use both houses as best we can, and as a minister I certainly try to use both houses and get legislation through as fast as I can. I do my best to make sure I have dialogue with my colleagues across the way, so we get legislation through more quickly, and I think my colleagues across the way have responded positively on a number of different occasions. We have come together in the House precisely to pass legislation in the criminal law sphere that is important to Canadians.
As a minister, I am doing my best to work with the opposition. Some days we run out of time.
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- Oct/26/22 5:06:34 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-9
Mr. Speaker, the quality and diversity of appointments is an important part of the picture, and this piece of legislation is an important part of the picture, because it reinforces the principle of judicial independence. It reinforces the principle of judicial responsibility in the management and maintenance of high standards, which helps the administration of justice and the confidence Canadians have in the justice system.
I would also add that we have added, as a government, based on a private member's bill from Rona Ambrose, former member of Parliament and former interim leader of the Conservative Party, measures to better train judges at the outset, so they will be better judges when cases come before them.
When we put all that together, we are putting together a justice system that not only reflects the diversity of Canada but also reflects the quality and the competence of Canadians and gives us better justice.
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- Oct/26/22 5:09:20 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-9
Mr. Speaker, again, I appreciate the very sincere place whence the question comes. When those kinds of suggestions are being made, whether it is here in this House or in committee, when that kind of constructive dialogue that makes legislation better is the subject matter of debate, I am all for it.
However, when debate is done and procedural shenanigans are added simply for the purpose of slowing down the passage of legislation, when it is no longer the case that bettering the bill or furthering debate is the point of the exercise, then it is time to have a vote and move on. We are not serving Canadians by just putting sand in the machinery, by putting sand in the cogs. We are serving Canadians when we are trying to better pieces of legislation and when we are playing our various roles as parliamentarians.
I agree with the hon. member if that is the sentiment, but far too often that is not the sentiment from the other side. It is merely shutdown tactics to try to slow or stop the government from moving forward.
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- Oct/26/22 5:11:54 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-9
Mr. Speaker, I share the member's sentiment. In fact, she has inspired me to try to use speaking notes less over the course of my career here. I am not perfect, but I do my best to speak without the aid of notes when I can and to give my own thoughts when I can. It is something more difficult when the matter is a technical one, and I have to rely on some of the legal expertise that exists either in my department or in my ministry. However, I think she is correct.
I want to reflect on something. When I was a graduate student in the U.K., I often went to see parliamentary debates, particular in the House of Lords, of all places, in the U.K. The quality of debate was simply so much better. It was, in large measure, because of what the hon. member spoke about. There was very little speaking from notes.
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- Oct/26/22 5:13:58 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-9
Mr. Speaker, I agree with that point. I want to list some of the groups that were consulted by the Canadian Judicial Council, like the Canadian Bar Association, the Federation of Law Societies and the Council of Canadian Law Deans.
The member is absolutely right. This will go to committee. All sides will be able to bring witnesses to see if anything was missed. I hope it will be done fairly expeditiously because I think there is a high level of general agreement on this bill.
It is something that judges, in particular, feel needs to pass quickly. They have implored us to do it. They came out in September in a press release and said they wanted us to pass this quickly. When one member of the judiciary gets criticized for behaviour that is not becoming of a judge and it brings the system of justice into disrepute, they all feel it. It is important that they exercise this responsibility and create a better system to better manage themselves and hold themselves to the highest standard. It is important for us to react to that and to change something that was originally enacted 50 years ago. Reform to it is long overdue.
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- Oct/26/22 5:15:54 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-9
Mr. Speaker, I usually leave those sorts of things to our House leaders to discuss among themselves. I am here today because this bill needs to get through. We need to get it to committee so that, if there are other improvements that can be made, they can be made.
As I said, we had the absolutely horrific case of a judge who was caught purchasing cocaine a couple of weeks before he was to be sworn in. Then when the time came that the judges took action against him, he used every single lateral procedural move he could, extended the case out over a period of years and cost the taxpayers a whole lot of money. What we are trying to do is make the system not only more just and fair but also more efficient, so that it does not bring the whole system of justice into disrepute.
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- Oct/26/22 5:17:40 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-9
Mr. Speaker, again, I salute the sincere place that question comes from.
It is important we do our best. I have already mentioned there has been a large degree of agreement on a lot of the things we have brought forward on the justice agenda, from the Conservative Party, from the NDP, from the Bloc Québécois and from the Greens, and I am proud of that. One of the most formative experiences in my life was clerking for a judge at the Supreme Court of Canada, Justice Peter Cory. He remains one of my touchstones every day, in terms of how I conduct myself and what I aspire to.
I think that is the kind of inspiration that should push all of us, I hope, toward passing this kind of legislation. People will tell us that Justice Cory was the most ethical human being who ever walked this earth, and I agree with that. If this legislation, in any way, shape or form, helps us to have more Peter Corys out there, then I think the world would be a better place.
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- Oct/26/22 5:19:54 p.m.
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- Re: Bill C-9
Mr. Speaker, I was at a justice ministers FPT last week. Minister Rankin from British Columbia brought this issue forward. All the justice ministers agreed we would immediately put that to a committee to look at the question of repeat offenders and what we could do. That is on the record. We said that publicly.
I appreciate the seriousness of the question and the seriousness of the situation. I will work with people in this House and also my provincial and territorial counterparts in order to hopefully find a better way forward.
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