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May/19/22 6:34:28 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I am always pleased to have a conversation with the hon. member. I am very happy to report on the settlement. Earlier this year, we made an announcement that we were going forward with $35 million for our rural and small communities. I had the privilege last week to go to Moose Jaw in Saskatchewan, where I announced $14.2 million that will be distributed among 11 rural communities. We have been there since day one with our Ukrainian community. We will continue to be there and support them, and I am very proud of the actions that our government has taken.

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Ms. Elizabeth May (Saanich—Gulf Islands, GP)

May/19/22 6:35:24 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, it is an honour to rise tonight on this adjournment debate. I want to acknowledge I am standing here on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people. The question I am pursuing tonight I originally asked on April 27, so it had not been long since we had received the final chapter of the sixth assessment report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, with its most dire warnings ever. I asked the Prime Minister how it could be, given we had been told by the IPCC that emissions must peak globally by 2025 and drop dramatically from there to at least half by 2030, that two days later the government approved the Bay du Nord project, and how it could be that, three days later, the budget included continuing to build the Trans Mountain pipeline, while somehow transferring that monstrosity to indigenous ownership. The Prime Minister's answer, as ever, was that the government was doing so much and had committed $100 billion to be spent between 2016 and 2030. One hundred billion dollars is a lot of money, but it does not save us. The government's plan does not come close to holding to 2°C or 1.5°C. We are facing some very serious realities, and talking points will not do. I have to admit that I made an error in my question of April 27. On how bad things were, I quoted from the IPCC lead author, who said that it was “now or never”. I read the report of the IPCC as saying, as I just did, that we had until 2025 globally to ensure that emissions had peaked and dropped from there. I was wrong. I went back and reread page 22 of the “Summary for Policymakers” of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's sixth assessment report. We do not have until 2025; we have less time. The quote is that “global emissions must peak between 2020 and, at the latest, before 2025”. This is not a political debate. I know the hon. parliamentary secretary is as good and decent a person as we are ever going to find in this place, and the minister is a good person and the Prime Minister is a good person, but it does not matter. The difference between policies developed by good people who fall short on climate change and policies by people who do not believe climate change exists, in the words of Bill McKibben, one of our leading champions for climate action globally, is losing more slowly. The Liberal plan before us does not deal with the science. It does not. Setting net-zero by 2050 as if it means anything is spin. It is not science. Net-zero by 2050 is only relevant if global emissions peak before 2025 and drop rapidly from there. I know what the hon. minister has said in this place about Bay du Nord and the emissions not being Canada's problem. Really? When did he lose his moral compass? The emissions do not matter if they happen somewhere else? Canada is to continue to increase producing oil and gas? It is not our problem if the emissions in other countries condemn our children to an unlivable world? That is what we are talking about; nothing less than that. When we have a choice between now or never, please do not choose never.

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Ms. Julie Dabrusin (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources and to the Minister of Environment and Climate Change, Lib.)

May/19/22 6:39:31 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I appreciate the points raised by the hon. member for Saanich—Gulf Islands. I always like discussing this issue with her. Fighting climate change is very important to me. It is an issue that really guides the work that I do in this place every day. I would point out that we are at the point of seeing a flattening of emissions from this country, and that is a very big deal. In 2019, we began to see a decoupling, where the economy grew and emissions were flattening. They were not growing in the same way the economy was. In 2020, our emissions in fact dropped, but that was a different year. We all know that because we were not travelling the way we had before. However, I will point out that some of that drop is a permanent piece that comes from the work that we have done to remove coal-fired electricity from the electrical grid, as we are doing, so there are positives steps. I think it is really important to highlight some of that as well because I feel the anxiety, as I think so many people do, and it is important to point out that progress is being made. The member has also raised the Bay du Nord project. I have pointed out that we are making progress. There is work being done. It is hard work. We put a price on carbon pollution. That was a big deal. We had to fight it all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada to make it stick. That was a lot of hard work, and it is a having an impact. It is a very strong market mechanism. If we look toward next things, we are mandating zero-emission vehicles so that 100% of all new light-duty vehicles sold by 2035 will be zero emission. We are retrofitting buildings as set out in the emissions reduction plan. As quickly as we seek to make that transition, there are many logistical challenges that we are overcoming to make that happen quickly. Currently, we are still in a place where we rely on oil and gas for our homes and transportation. Even as we transition from the combustion of fossil fuels, and this was something that was a big learning for me, there is going to remain a need for non-combustion related uses. For example, I was at my bike shop talking to someone about my bike. Right now, there is no other quality way to lubricate the chain on my bicycle than to use oil. It is also used for plastics in a medical context. Those are needs that are still there. Therefore, the world will still need some fossil fuels, but not necessarily for combustion, which brings me to the question of Bay du Nord. The federal government accepted the environmental assessment of the Impact Assessment Agency regarding the Baie du Nord project after four years of consideration and scrutiny by scientific experts. The projected emissions from Baie du Nord are 10 times less than the oil sands on average and five times less than the average oil and gas project. Ultimately, I am going to highlight this, because it is something that is important to me as I look at all of this: The atmosphere sees emissions, but it does not see production barrel numbers. What we are doing is driving down the combustion of fossil fuels in our own country through the work I have outlined above, and there is so much work being done. We are also putting a cap on emissions from the oil and gas sector. Those are all steps we are taking that are important steps forward. I would say we are making tremendous progress. It is a hard mountain to move, but we are doing it. I thank the hon. member for all of her feedback and work on this issue.

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Ms. Elizabeth May

May/19/22 6:43:33 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I did not say in my four minutes up here that the government is not working. I did not say that individuals are not working hard. I did not say the government is not making progress. I said that the totality of what it has proposed does not protect my grandchildren from the Mad Max dystopian future that awaits them on if we stay on the trajectory we are on, so we must be sure we do more. There is no excuse for the government wasting billions of dollars on the Trans Mountain pipeline. There is no excuse for an emissions reduction plan that includes an increase of 21% by 2030 of oil and gas production. There is no excuse for approving Baie du Nord. My Liberal friends, who claim to be climate active, should hang their heads in shame. They must do more. We stand on the edge of too late, but it is not yet too late.

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Ms. Julie Dabrusin

May/19/22 6:44:35 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I do understand the urgency. It is, in fact, something I take very seriously in the work I do. It is something that I take to heart, and there is urgency in the work we are doing. In only looking through the emissions reduction plan, it goes through every sector of our economy, putting forward projections to reduce our emissions. We have signed on to international agreements. Canada joined over 100 countries in signing the global methane pledge to reduce global anthropogenic methane emissions by 30% by 2030. If we look at all of the work put together, including reducing emissions by 40% to 45% from 2005 levels by 2030, then we are on a path to net zero by 2050. It is urgent, I absolutely agree, and we are working with that urgency. We will continue to do so.

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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès)

May/19/22 6:45:33 p.m.
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Pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), the motion to adjourn the House is now deemed to have been withdrawn. The House will now resolve itself into committee of the whole to study all votes under Department of Public Works and Government Services in the main estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2023.

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The Assistant Deputy Chair

May/19/22 6:46:07 p.m.
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Today's debate is a general one on all votes under the Department of Public Works and Government Services. The first round will begin with the official opposition, followed by the government, the Bloc Québécois and the New Democratic Party. After that, we will follow the usual proportional rotation. Each member will be allocated 15 minutes at a time, which may be used both for debate and for posing questions. Members wishing to use this time to make a speech have a maximum of 10 minutes, leaving at least five minutes for questions to the minister. When a member is recognized, he or she should indicate to the Chair how the 15-minute period will be used, meaning how much time will be spent on the speech and how much time will be used for questions and comments. Also, pursuant to order made earlier today, members who wish to share their time with another member shall indicate this to the Chair. The Chair will receive no quorum calls, dilatory motions or requests for unanimous consent. When the time is to be used for questions and comments, the minister's response should reflect approximately the time taken to pose the question, since this time will be counted in the time originally allotted to the member. Pursuant to order made earlier today, the time provided for the debate tonight may be extended beyond four hours as needed to include a minimum of 16 periods of 15 minutes each. I also wish to indicate that in committee of the whole comments should be addressed to the Chair. I ask for everyone's co-operation in upholding all established standards of decorum, parliamentary language and behaviour. We will now begin tonight's session.

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Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus (Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, CPC)

May/19/22 6:48:27 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I would like to salute and welcome the minister. Now, on to the first question. The Parliamentary Budget Officer said the following at the February 4 meeting of the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates: “The pattern is that whenever we look at major procurement issues, for example, combat ships, supply ships, and now polar icebreakers, there is one constant: the costs are always higher when an independent office estimates them rather than the government.” Why is that?

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Hon. Filomena Tassi (Minister of Public Services and Procurement, Lib.)

May/19/22 6:48:58 p.m.
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Madam Chair, we always provide the estimates, and we do our best to maintain procurement that matches up with those estimates.

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Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus

May/19/22 6:49:08 p.m.
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Madam Chair, Andrew Kendrick, who testified on May 13 at the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, mentioned that the major shipyards always transferred the risk to the smaller suppliers, the contractors, and that the costs associated with the risks were assumed by them. If they needed to boost the price, they just had to increase the bill and the government paid. Why are the contracts written that way? Why is it always the taxpayers who pay for the cost overruns or the risks, which most often are passed on to the smaller players?

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Hon. Filomena Tassi

May/19/22 6:49:42 p.m.
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Madam Chair, we are really proud of our national shipbuilding strategy. The investments we make into that strategy pay off. The economic benefits pay off, and it is not just for the large shipyards. Small businesses benefit as well.

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Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus

May/19/22 6:49:58 p.m.
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Madam Chair, the cost of everything is skyrocketing right now. None of the contracts involve fixed costs. A number of witnesses told the committee that many businesses in many countries had fixed costs. The witnesses suggested signing fixed-cost contracts. Does the minister agree?

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Hon. Filomena Tassi

May/19/22 6:50:18 p.m.
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Madam Chair, what I would acknowledge is that COVID has had an impact around the world. With respect to the shipyards, there is no question that COVID has impacted costs of labour and supply chain issues. We always work in a way to maintain having costs match up to the quotes that are given, but COVID has presented a number of challenges, not only in shipyards but also all around the world in supply chains and labour.

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Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus

May/19/22 6:50:49 p.m.
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Madam Chair, was Canada the only country to experience COVID‑19 or did it happen in other countries as well?

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Hon. Filomena Tassi

May/19/22 6:50:56 p.m.
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Madam Chair, COVID has happened around the world.

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Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus

May/19/22 6:51:00 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I have another point that was raised by officials from Public Services and Procurement Canada. On April 7, these bureaucrats told the committee that we can expect further cost overruns and delays regarding the delivery of new ships for the navy and the Coast Guard, and that the multi-billion dollar shipbuilding program faces significant challenges. Will the minister admit that billions of dollars in cost overruns are already expected?

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Hon. Filomena Tassi

May/19/22 6:51:26 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I have had an opportunity to visit one of the shipyards, and the work that is going on there is second to none. To see the extent of what is taking place here in Canada, on Canadian soil, to produce these ships is absolutely fantastic. It is creating jobs and economic growth right here in Canada.

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Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus

May/19/22 6:51:58 p.m.
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Madam Chair, nobody is questioning the shipyard employees' work. What we are questioning is the excessive cost overruns taxpayers have to cover for projects that, to make matters worse, are often delayed. There are delays. Here is my question. Are these delays and cost overruns due to government management, or does the problem lie with the shipyards?

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Hon. Filomena Tassi

May/19/22 6:52:23 p.m.
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Madam Chair, just so that we are aware, I want to point out some of the benefits that the national shipbuilding strategy and the investments that we are making are having on Canadians. First, there is the creation of jobs, which includes the creation of over 18,000 jobs per year that are created or maintained. In terms of the economic benefit, it is $1.54 billion annually to the economy. With respect to overruns, I have already mentioned that COVID has had an impact and that does impact some of the overruns that have been faced.

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Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus

May/19/22 6:52:57 p.m.
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Madam Chair, Troy Crosby, the person responsible for National Defence procurement, told the committee that the ships are not being built fast enough and that they are costing more. I want to know if the minister has sent the shipyards an official letter, directive or document of some sort expressing the Government of Canada's concerns about the delays and cost overruns. If so, when did she send it? If not, why not?

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