- Member of Parliament
- Member of Parliament
- Liberal
- Thunder Bay—Rainy River
- Ontario
- Voting Attendance: 65%
- Expenses Last Quarter: $144,359.62
- Government Page
- Feb/15/24 4:15:01 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I am not against MAID for physical illnesses. That is a totally different situation. The problem with MAID for mental illness is the inability to determine who is not going to get better. The unfortunate reality is that there are a lot of doctors who have a very cavalier attitude toward taking someone's life, and that there are people who could or would get better with a little time and with better treatment who would otherwise have their lives foreshortened by one of these zealous practitioners.
Certainly it is very different from, for example, the Carter situation, or someone who has ALS and is terminally ill with a neurodegenerative disease. That is a totally different story, and in those cases I certainly approve of MAID if that is what the person wants.
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- Feb/15/24 4:03:00 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, let me start by apologizing to the four or five people who might have listened to my last speech and who are here listening again today, because this is going to sound a little repetitive.
I certainly support the legislation, and I know there are a lot of people out there who are really worried about allowing MAID for mental illness. There are people who are worried about their friends. There are people who are worried about their parents. I am most sympathetic to people who are worried about their children. I have six children, and I know that they are going to, at some point in their life, go through difficult times. I would certainly be a little worried for them if we were to allow MAID for mental illness to be implemented with the current safeguards.
I know that there are also many psychiatrists who are worried about and/or oppose the legislation. In fact, the latest statistic I heard was from a survey that showed that about 75% of psychiatrists were against it. They are worried that their patients who would otherwise get better would instead resort to MAID.
Let me take a step back and look at the arguments coming from the other side. People are going to say, “Why not? Is it not a matter of personal autonomy? Is it not my body and my choice?”. This is not about the state's dictating to the individual what they can do with their own body. It does not criminalize trying to commit suicide or committing suicide. This is about what role, if any, the state should have in assisting people to commit suicide.
I am going to come back to the issue of whether MAID for mental illness is the same as assisting suicide.
The question of whether the state ought to take a role in assisting people in ending their lives is, I think, a little like the question of whether the state should try to prevent people from killing themselves. This is a topic I know something about, having worked a lot of years as an emergency room physician. In that role, my job, if somebody came before me and was suicidal, was to keep them in the hospital, even against their will, to prevent their suicide from happening.
Occasionally people would ask why I should I have that power, saying, “ Is it not my body, and my decision to make?” I think that there are two legitimate reasons for the state to try to prevent people from killing themselves. One is to protect someone from themself. When one is in the depths of depression, they cannot realize that things will get better; that is partly why someone is so depressed and wants to kill themself. The reality for most people is that they do in fact get better.
The other legitimate reason for the state's intervention is to protect the family. The person who commits suicide is dead. The rest of the family lives on and lives with the pain, but it is not only that; they are constantly haunted by whether the death was because of something they did or did not do.
Some people are going to say that, no, MAID for mental illness is not the same as assisted suicide, that we are talking about a small group of people who have intense, prolonged suffering and have tried every form of treatment but nothing has worked, and that it is cruel and unconstitutional to not allow those people access to MAID. I disagree. The Canadian law is far more permissive than, for example, the Dutch law. There is absolutely no requirement that all forms of treatment have been tried and been unsuccessful. Our law does not even require patients to have tried any treatment at all; it requires only that the patient have no other treatment that is acceptable to them. There are going to be people who refuse all forms of treatment altogether.
I know that there are people who support MAID for mental illness who will say that the safeguards are going to come from the medical profession, that they are going to require someone to have tried all forms of treatment beforehand. Unfortunately, I do not have the same sort of faith in the medical profession's doing that. Why do I not? If we look at what has happened with the MAID regime for people with physical illnesses, we see that there are a lot of MAID practitioners who are very zealous about its being all about one's personal autonomy and saying it is not for them to question someone's suffering, and who are quick to approve people.
Let me give some examples from the media. The Fifth Estate aired a program that said that a 23-year-old diabetic going blind in one eye was granted MAID. Another person, a 54-year-old man, had back problems, but his main problem seemed to be that he was worried about losing his housing and ending up on the street. He too was granted MAID.
CTV published a couple of relevant articles. A 51-year-old woman was actually granted and got MAID for multiple chemical sensitivities. Again, from CTV, a 31-year-old woman who seemed to use a wheelchair from time to time and had multiple environmental allergies, applied and was approved for MAID; again, however, her main problem seemed to be that she could not find suitable housing.
There are those who have such faith in my fellow doctors to come up with the system and all the safeguards, but I do not share the same sort of faith. I, as someone with a lot of children, realize it is inevitable that at times in their life they are going to go through a hard time, the breakup of a relationship or financial hard times. I am really worried that they would walk through the door of a zealous practitioner who will tell them it is all about personal autonomy and is their decision to make, because who is the doctor to question their suffering. There is not any requirement in the current legislation that the MAID practitioner talk to the family or the previous treating practitioner to find out whether in fact the depression was motivated by, for example, the breakup of a relationship.
I also want to talk about what I think is a really fundamental and perhaps fatal flaw in the current regime with allowing MAID for mental illness, which is the problem, the impossibility, of determining irremediability: Who is not actually going to get better? I have spoken previously about the inability of suicidal individuals to appreciate the fact that they are going to get better. Some people would ask whether there are people who are not going to get better, who are irremediable. That is in fact the requirement of the legislation. The problem is that doctors do not have a crystal ball. They are not really good at being able to determine who really is irremediable.
In fact, a recently published study looking at the ability of clinicians to determine irremediability for treatment-resistant depression concluded:
Our findings support the claim that, as per available evidence, clinicians cannot accurately predict long-term chances of recovery in a particular patient with [treatment-resistant depression]. This means that the objective standard of irremediability cannot be met....
Furthermore, there are no current evidence-based or established standards of care for determining irremediability of mental illness for the purpose of [MAID] assessments.
For me, as a long-time medical doctor, it is absolutely mind-boggling that there are medical practitioners and psychiatrists who are not particularly bothered by the fact that they really cannot say whether the illness is irremediable, and would grant MAID. If we allow MAID for one such person who would actually get better, to me it would seem tantamount to the same sort of tragedy as the state's hanging someone who later turned out to be innocent. We in this place cannot let that happen.
Last, let me address the assertion of proponents of MAID who say that it is inevitable that the Supreme Court would find not allowing MAID for mental illness unconstitutional because it is allowed for physical illness. I think that, yes, there would be a finding that such a provision would violate section 15 or section 7, but as always, the question comes down to the section 1 analysis and whether the state's actions constitute a reasonable limitation as prescribed by law that “can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.” I do not think the answer to that is clear. It is not just me; there was a letter written by 32 law professors who came to the same conclusion: it was not clear whether it would be found unconstitutional.
I am not going to say that we should never allow MAID for mental illness; in fact, I know personally of a case where this might have been the ethical thing to do, but I think we are a long way now from being in a situation where we should start to allow it. I would prefer the pause be indefinite, but so be it. We have what we have. Let us look at it in two years and see what has changed. I doubt very much will have changed.
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- Feb/13/24 7:53:47 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague from Montcalm, who sits with me on the Standing Committee on Health.
I am worried about something. I was a doctor and I still practise medicine, but now I am here in the legislature. We make the rules, and I think one of our responsibilities when we make rules is, like a doctor, to do no harm. If we implement this legislation, I am genuinely concerned that, although I know my colleague from Montcalm is a great individual, and I trust him, there are a lot of zealous MAID practitioners who are very cavalier in allowing MAID for various forms of illness. I do worry that my kids and the kids of my constituents are going to go through hard times and see one of these zealous practitioners, who will say, “Well, it is your decision to make."
It is our job to protect those people. That is why I am here.
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- Feb/13/24 7:41:34 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, let me start by saying that I am sharing my time with the member for Sarnia—Lambton, which, I have to say, is a little bizarre.
I support this legislation, a further three-year hold on allowing MAID for mental illness, and, in addition, imposing a requirement in two years' time to reform the MAID committee to re-examine this question.
I know there are a lot of people out there who are worried about MAID for mental illness. People are worried about their parents. People are worried about their siblings, and I can most appreciate that people are worried about their children. I have six kids and I, frankly, would be worried if we were to implement this legislation as is, because I do not think there are adequate safeguards. Everyone who is a parent realizes that our children will inevitably, at some time, go through difficult times.
I also know that there are many psychiatrists out there who are worried about this, and the majority of psychiatrists are against this. They are worried that their patients, who would otherwise probably get better, would instead resort to MAID. To all these people, I think their concerns are totally justified. I do not think there are adequate safeguards in place at the moment.
Let me step back a bit and look at the approach of those who are advocating for MAID for mental illness to start right now. For them, it is all about personal autonomy: “It is my body, my choice. Who are you to second-guess whether I want to live or not?” This is not the state dictating to people what to do with their own bodies. It is not criminalizing either suicide or attempted suicide. This is a question of what role, if any, the state should have in assisting people to commit suicide.
I am going to get back to the question: Is MAID for mental illness really the same as suicide? The question of whether the state should be assisting people in committing suicide is closely akin to the question of whether the state should help to prevent people from committing suicide. This is something that I have a bit of experience with, because for a lot of years, as an emergency room doctor, I would see people who were suicidal, and it would be my role, if I thought they were suicidal, to keep them in the hospital, even against their will. People would ask me why I should have this power. They would ask, “Is it not my right to decide what to do with my own body?”
In thinking about it, I thought, well, the state has two legitimate interests in trying to prevent people from killing themselves. One is to protect people from themselves, because when they are in the depths of depression they do not realize that things will get better. That is partly why they are so depressed and why they want to kill themselves. However, the vast majority of people do get better.
The other legitimate reason for the state to intervene is to protect the loved ones. The person who dies is dead; they are not suffering any more pain. The people who continue to feel the pain are those who have lost their loved one. In addition, they often spend the rest of their lives thinking about whether this had anything to do with something they could or could not have done.
I know there are people who are going to say this is different: MAID for mental illness is different from assisting suicide, and the people they are talking about with respect to MAID for mental illness are people who are chronically, desperately ill, who have tried all forms of treatment and for whom nothing has been effective. They say that it is really cruel and unconstitutional not to help those people. I disagree.
First of all, the Canadian law, unlike the Dutch law, is very permissive as to who meets the requirements. There is absolutely no requirement that the person has tried all forms of therapy and they have failed. In fact, they do not have to have tried any form of treatment at all, because the legislation would require only that there are no other treatments acceptable to the patient. I know, from being a doctor, that people are going to refuse all treatment. They are going to refuse medications. I know those who support MAID for mental illness are going to say, “Okay, it is not in the legislation, but it is up to the medical profession, the doctors, to impose these requirements, like trying all forms of treatment, even if the law does not.”
I hate to say it, but as a doctor I do not have the same faith in my own medical profession, and the reason for that is that we ought to have learned from what has happened with MAID for other forms of physical disability. There are a lot of zealous MAID practitioners out there who absolutely believe that personal autonomy is paramount and do not think we ought to be questioning why somebody decides to take their own life.
Let me give some examples from the media. The Fifth Estate, a very good show, talked about a 23-year-old diabetic person who was losing sight in one eye, who applied for and was granted MAID. Another story was of a 54-year-old man with back problems, but his real problem seemed to be that he was afraid of losing his apartment and ending up on the street. He too applied for and was granted MAID.
CTV documented the story of a 51-year-old woman, who applied for and actually received MAID for multiple chemical sensitivities. Another story was of a 31-year-old woman approved for MAID for needing a wheelchair. I do not think she actually really needed it, but she usually used a wheelchair and had multiple environmental allergies. Again, her problem was mostly that she could not find adequate housing. Again, this person was approved for MAID.
To those who have such faith in the medical profession that they say we are going to create the safeguards, they are perhaps a little naive. I would sincerely worry if we were to implement this legislation with the safeguards in it right now. I have six children, and I know, almost inevitably, that life is such that they are going to go through difficult times, such as the breakup of a relationship or hard financial times. I would be worried they would see one of these zealous practitioners who believe in personal autonomy, who would say, “Who am I to question your suffering?”
Part of the problem is that the current legislation would not require the MAID practitioner to talk either to the family or to the treating doctor, so they are not going to find out that the depression was the result of the breakup of a relationship or the person's not taking their medication.
I also want to briefly talk about the problem with allowing MAID for mental illness and the question of irremediability. Part of the problem with allowing it for people who are depressed is the fact they cannot see that things are going to get better, but people are going to say that surely there are people out there who are not going to get better, which is the requirement of the legislation: One needs to have an irremediable illness.
The problem, though, is that doctors are not really good at predicting who is not going to get better, especially with respect to mental illness. With things like cancer, it is different.
A recently published study that looked at clinicians' ability to determine irremediability for treatment-resistant depression concluded, “Our findings support the claim that, as per available evidence, clinicians cannot accurately predict long-term chances of recovery in a particular patient with [treatment-resistant depression]. This means that the objective standard for irremediability cannot be met”.
Furthermore, there are no current evidence-based or established standards of care for determining irremediability of mental illness for the purpose of MAID assessment.
For me, as a long-time doctor, it is almost mind-boggling that there are practitioners out there, psychiatrists, who are not particularly bothered by the fact that they cannot be sure somebody's condition is irremediable. It would be absolutely terrible to take someone's life when they could actually get better.
Lastly, let me address the assertion of some proponents of MAID that it is inevitable that if this was to go to the Supreme Court, it would find it to be unconstitutional, because it discriminates against people who have mental illness rather than physical illness. I do not think it is at all inevitable. Yes, a court would probably find this to be a violation of section 15 or section 7, but the real question, as in a lot of constitutional questions, is the section 1 analysis. Does it constitute a reasonable limitation “prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society”?
I think that is highly questionable, but never mind my opinion. There was a letter written by 32 law professors to the relevant ministers a year ago, stating the same thing, which is that it was not clear this would be found unconstitutional.
I am not going to say I do not think we should ever allow MAID for mental illnesses. I, in fact, know someone to whom perhaps the only humane thing would have been to offer it. However, we are very far at the moment from being in a position in which I would be willing to advocate for MAID for mental illness.
Let us vote for this legislation. Let us re-examine it in two years' time.
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