44th Parl. 1st Sess.
October 30, 2023
- 11:00:19 a.m.
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I call this meeting to order.
Welcome to meeting number 79 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.
Pursuant to the order of reference of Friday, November 25, 2022, the committee continues its consideration of Bill C-20, an act establishing the public complaints and review commission and amending certain acts and statutory instruments. Today the committee resumes clause-by-clause consideration.
Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. Pursuant to the Standing Orders, members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.
I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of officials and members.
Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. That's a little flexible. As long as we're being friends, we can loosen that up a bit.
Although this room is equipped with a powerful audio system, feedback events can occur. These can be extremely harmful to interpreters and cause serious injuries. The most common cause of sound feedback is an earpiece worn too close to a microphone. In order to prevent incidents and safeguard the hearing health of the interpreters, I invite participants to ensure that they speak into the microphone into which their headset is plugged and to avoid manipulating the earbuds by placing them on the table away from the microphone when they are not in use.
Finally, I'm reminding you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.
We'll now welcome, once again, the officials who are with us. They are available for questions regarding the bill, but they will not deliver opening statements.
From the Canada Border Services Agency, we have Cathy Maltais, director, recourse directorate. From the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we have Joanne Gibb, senior director, strategic operations and policy directorate, and Lesley McCoy, general counsel. From the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, we have Randall Koops, director general, international border policy; Martin Leuchs, manager, border policy; and Deidre Pollard-Bussey, director, policing policy. From the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we have Kathleen Clarkin, director, national recruiting program; and Alfredo Bangloy, assistant commissioner and professional responsibility officer.
Thank you for joining us today.
(On clause 35)
The Chair: We first have BQ-6.
Go ahead, Ms. Michaud.
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- 11:03:03 a.m.
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Thank you, Mr. Chair.
BQ‑6 is quite simple. This is a consequential amendment, simply to ensure consistency in the wording to be used in the amendments adopted a little earlier, which added the possibility for third parties to file a complaint.
Again, as with the previous amendment, it says “non-governmental organization”. If someone wants to amend my amendment to read “third party” instead, I would be in favour of that type of change.
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- 11:03:46 a.m.
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Thank you.
Go ahead, Ms. O'Connell.
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- 11:03:50 a.m.
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Thank you, Mr. Chair.
We support this amendment, with the same changes as in earlier clauses.
I would move a subamendment to change “non-governmental organization” to “third party”.
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- 11:04:07 a.m.
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Is there any discussion on BQ-6 as subamended?
Mr. Julian, go ahead.
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- 11:04:17 a.m.
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Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I want to ask our witnesses, whom we deeply appreciate for being here, for their sense of the difference between “third party” and “non-governmental organization”. I know we had a bit of this discussion at the last meeting. I think the distinction between the two would be important as a refresher.
Who is included in “third party”? How would “non-governmental organization” be restrictive?
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- 11:04:47 a.m.
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Thank you, Mr. Chair.
As with the previous amendments, we see no problem with the intent.
It is perhaps preferable for the committee to consider “third party” instead of “non-governmental”, since it is slightly broader in its application. Many third parties would not fall under the rubric of a non-governmental organization. Some could, in fact, even be governmental in nature, or individual in nature.
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- 11:05:15 a.m.
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Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I support the subamendment, and I will be supporting the amendment as well.
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- 11:05:20 a.m.
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Thank you, Mr. Julian.
We go now to Mr. Motz.
Go ahead, please.
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- 11:05:23 a.m.
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Thank you very much.
To the witnesses, can you clarify for me something from last week? Did we need language in here that added the fact that a third party could come but that we would need to have the complainant actually give that authorization? Do you remember that we had that conversation? I don't remember how we finished it off.
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- 11:06:01 a.m.
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For privacy reasons we might, but I would suggest that it depends on the nature of the third party. As it's written, we don't need it.
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- 11:06:12 a.m.
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That's concerning to me. As it is written, they don't need it. You could have somebody who saw, as was explained last week, an episode of Border Security on TV, or who heard about some friend who had an issue with the RCMP, and before you know it, even though they don't even know or have never spoken to the actual victim or the complainant in a matter, they can go ahead and make a complaint on their behalf. That's what I'm getting at.
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- 11:06:45 a.m.
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The commission still has the discretion to refuse. A third party can make the complaint, but we would still have the discretion to refuse.
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- 11:06:51 a.m.
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Before it gets to the commission, does each agency have the right of refusal on a complaint that comes in without authorization from a victim?
CBSA says yes.
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- 11:07:12 a.m.
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Today I'm saying yes. On the legislation, I'd have to turn to my Public Safety colleagues. We've made a few amendments. I'm not sure whether we still have that right or not, because today we do require third party authorization.
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- 11:07:27 a.m.
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The commission remains the point of intake, even if the complaint is filed at a detachment or it's from CBSA. It would still come to us to deal with, so we could refuse to deal with a complaint if there was no connection to that third party. The agencies have the discretion to refuse to investigate.
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- 11:07:44 a.m.
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That isn't in legislation anymore, though, is it?
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- 11:07:48 a.m.
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- 11:07:49 a.m.
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Specifically, yes, you have right of refusal, but wouldn't you save yourselves a lot of steps—given the fact that there is a significant amount of underfunding for the expansion of the commission—if you had it right in legislation, “without authorization from a person who's been aggrieved” or, based on this subamendment, if a third party could actually make this sort of complaint with authorization from an aggrieved individual? Would that not clarify it a lot better?
It would save you guys a lot of “Yes, we can”, and “How come...?”, and “No, we're not” and “How come you're not?”, and having that battle back and forth, if right in the legislation it said you had to have authorization from the person who is alleged to have been aggrieved in order to pursue this particular matter on their behalf.
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- 11:08:54 a.m.
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In practice the commission does verify whether there is consent, and in most cases there is, or perhaps in every case thus far. There are some situations in which it wouldn't necessarily be appropriate to ensure that there is consent, but as my colleague Ms. Gibb indicated, there are provisions currently in the act but also in Bill C-20 that provide discretion to the commission to refuse to deal with the complaint for various different reasons.
As well, the RCMP and the CBSA have similar provisions to refuse to investigate or to cease an investigation if there isn't a sufficient nexus with the individual directly affected.
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