The Hon. the Speaker: Is leave granted, honourable senators?

The Hon. the Speaker: I see two senators rising. Do we have agreement on a bell?

The Hon. the Speaker: All those in favour of the motion will please say “yea.”

The Hon. the Speaker: In my opinion, the “yeas” have it.

And two honourable senators having risen:

The Hon. the Speaker: The vote will take place now.

Motion agreed to on the following division:

The Hon. the Speaker: All those opposed to the motion will please say “nay.”

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, I wish to draw your attention to the presence in the gallery of John Philpott and Sam Dugestani. They are the guests of the Honourable Senator Ravalia.

On behalf of all honourable senators, I welcome you to the Senate of Canada.

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, I wish to draw your attention to the presence in the gallery of Raymond Mong and Christina Chong. They are the guests of the Honourable Senator Woo.

On behalf of all honourable senators, I welcome you to the Senate of Canada.

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, we welcome today the Honourable Dominic LeBlanc, P.C., M.P., Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Infrastructure and Communities, to ask questions relating to his ministerial responsibilities.

Pursuant to the order adopted by the Senate on December 7, 2021, senators do not need to stand. Questions are limited to one minute and responses to one-and-a-half minutes. The reading clerk will stand 10 seconds before the expiry of these times. Question Period will last one hour.

The Hon. the Speaker: Senator Lankin, your time has expired.

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, when shall this report be taken into consideration?

(On motion of Senator Klyne, report placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting of the Senate.)

[Translation]

The Hon. the Speaker: The time for Question Period has expired, and I’m certain senators will want to join me in thanking Minister LeBlanc for being with us today.

The Hon. the Speaker: Senators, we have now reached 90 minutes of debate on this very important point of order that was raised by Senator Plett. I have four other speakers that we’re going to hear from — Senator Saint-Germain, Senator Batters, Senator Dalphond and Senator Cotter — but I would caution senators that a number of important points have already been made more than once and repetition of those points is not really adding much to the debate.

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, I thank Senator Plett for raising this point of order. I thank all senators who have participated. It has been quite a lengthy and extensive debate. I understand from the table and from the scroll meeting this morning that there will not be an agreement not to see the clock. I’m wondering if we could have the consent of the Senate to suspend now until eight o’clock, which will give me some time to put together a lot of what I have heard today.

Is it agreed, honourable senators?

The Hon. the Speaker: Agreed. The Senate will suspend until 8 p.m.

(The sitting of the Senate was suspended.)

(The sitting of the Senate was resumed.)

The Hon. the Speaker: Order, please. Honourable senators, the question is as follows:

Shall the Speaker’s ruling be sustained? All those in favour of the Speaker’s ruling will please say “yea.”

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, I am ready to rule on Senator Plett’s point of order. Let me start by thanking all of you for your input on this important matter. Since this notice was given last Thursday, I have been reviewing a range of issues relating to our time allocation process, and my ruling is the result of my own reflection and your arguments.

I believe that there are, in essence, two issues involved in the point of order: first, the procedural requirement to indicate a lack of agreement; and, second, the fundamental issue of whether Senator Gold, as Government Representative, can initiate this process at all.

On the first point — the matter of agreement and consultations — rule 7-2(1) states that, “At any time during a sitting, the Leader or the Deputy Leader of the Government may state that the representatives of the recognized parties have failed to agree to allocate time to conclude an adjourned debate …” on an item of Government Business.

In terms of any requirements for consultations or agreement, the wording of rule 7-2(1) is quite specific. The test is whether there has been a failure to agree to allocate time. A ruling of September 20, 2000, dealt with this concern. Speaker Molgat noted that the senator making the statement must be taken at their word. The Speaker went on to say: “All I have before me is a motion stating that they have reached no agreement at this point, the rule has been followed and the terms have been set out.” This was sufficient for debate on the time allocation motion to go ahead. The same analysis applies in the current case.

Having dealt with this initial issue, I will turn to the second concern in the point of order, which is the basic issue of whether Senator Gold can even initiate — or has a role in — the processes under Chapter 7 of the Rules.

As made clear in a ruling of May 19, 2016, regarding government positions in the Senate, Senator Gold, as Government Representative, is indeed Government Leader. The Government Representative routinely exercises the rights and responsibilities of that position.

Appendix I of the Rules defines the Government Leader as “The Senator who acts as the head of the Senators belonging to the Government party.” The very definition of the Government Leader thus makes clear that the senator occupying that position has a role that is analogous to, if not equivalent of, that of a party leader.

Appendix I recognizes that the definitions it contains are inherently flexible and depend on context, specifically stating that the definitions are to be interpreted in light of circumstances. The procedures for time allocation, which were introduced into the Rules in 1991, exist to allow the government the option of requesting, when it thinks appropriate, that the Senate agree to set limits to the duration of debate on an item of Government Business.

In light of the basic objective of the time allocation process, and the definitions in the Rules, it is appropriate that Senator Gold can play the role envisioned in Chapter 7 for the Government Leader.

It is also important to underscore that the government is not able to unilaterally impose time allocation on the Senate. Time allocation is proposed by the government, and the Senate itself must agree, or not, to the motion. Allowing the motion to go forward can, therefore, be understood as broadening the range of options open to the Senate. The government would have to explain and defend its proposal, which senators can then accept or reject. If senators reject the government’s proposal, debate continues according to normal practices.

In summary, honourable senators, the intent of Chapter 7 favours allowing debate on Senator Gold’s proposal to continue, which would widen the range of choices available to the Senate, and fits within the definitions contained in our Rules. The ruling is, therefore, that the motion is in order and debate can continue.

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, order, please.

The Hon. the Speaker: In my opinion, the “yeas” have it.

And two honourable senators having risen:

The Hon. the Speaker: The vote will take place at 9:10 p.m. Call in the senators.

Speaker’s ruling adopted on the following division: