Hon. Denise Batters: Senator Gold, the Auditor General noted in her recent COVID pandemic spending report that, “As of September 2022, the agency and the department had identified employees that claimed COVID-19 benefits.”

In that quote, “the agency” is the Canada Revenue Agency, and “the department” is Employment and Social Development Canada.

When MPs last week questioned officials from these two federal government entities that ran the CERB program about this, they were informed that 49 employees at the employment department were fired for claiming the benefit for themselves. The tax agency official would not state how many cases of employee CERB fraud had occurred at that government agency, saying only that it was “not many.”

Neither department referred these federal government employees found in such flagrant violations to law enforcement. Why not?

Hon. Denise Batters: Would Senator Dalphond take a couple of questions, please?

[Translation]

Senator Dalphond: It would be my pleasure, Senator Batters.

Senator Batters: Thank you very much.

[English]

In your speech you indicated — and it came through translation, so roughly translated — that virtually all stakeholders in the legal community support this bill. Who doesn’t support it and why?

Senator Dalphond: Thank you very much for this question of precision. I said I don’t know any who oppose it, but I restrained myself from making an overreaching statement that everybody is behind it — just in case you find somebody who will oppose it. I know that you, as critic, will work hard on this bill, and if there is any weakness in it, you will show it to me. Thank you.

Senator Batters: The predecessor bill to this one, as you pointed out near the end, was introduced in the Senate in 2021, I believe, and you may recall that I raised a concern about the appropriateness of the bill’s introduction in the Senate at the time because it could be presumed that part of it was a money bill and was problematic in that respect. You didn’t think it was problematic at the time, but the Speaker of the House of Commons agreed that it was, and the government reintroduced Bill C-9 in the House of Commons.

Now, I was briefly distracted when you were delivering your speech, but I believe you said that this bill was nearly identical except for one small amendment to that predecessor bill. When you were explaining that part, that was part of what I missed. If you could please relay that difference in this particular bill as compared to the predecessor bill.

Senator Dalphond: Thank you very much. Again, I rise with humility because I know that not only are we listening to Senator Batters but the Speaker of the other place is also listening, as we saw further to your questions last time about the money bill.

I said there was one change, and this change is minor. It is that when a complaint is dismissed at the screening process, in committee, MPs amended it to say that reasons should be provided to the complainant to ensure greater transparency. For example, if it were a complaint against a provincial judge, they would say, “Well, you should address your request to the provincial council, not to the Canadian Judicial Council.”

(On motion of Senator Martin, debate adjourned.)

Senator Batters: Senator Gold, this was a considerable news story last week, and as the Leader of the Government in the Senate, with all the staff and budget that entails, and as a member of Privy Council, there is no reason you shouldn’t be briefed about this and ready to give a government-wide answer on this issue.

My question is simple: In total, across all government departments, how many federal government employees applied for the CERB benefit, how many of them have been fired, and how many have been referred to law enforcement?