SoVote

Context: House Hansard - 281 - Feb/13/24

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.)

Feb/13/24 6:50:32 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I for one believe in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. When the Supreme Court made the decision under Carter that we needed to develop MAID legislation in Canada, there was a great deal of consultation. We all have personal opinions on complicated issues, including me, but I respect the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the court decisions, whether from the Supreme Court of Canada or the Superior Court in the province of Quebec. Could the member provide his thoughts regarding whether he supports the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the decisions that have been made through the courts?

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Mr. Garnett Genuis

Feb/13/24 6:51:21 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I have more respect for the charter than I believe this member of the government has. Notably, they have chosen, in the case of the Emergencies Act ruling, to appeal a court ruling. In the case of the Truchon decision, made by one judge, they chose not to appeal. I think this was clearly because the ideological minister of justice at the time was desperate to justify the expansion of the already flawed regime. Therefore, the government arbitrarily chooses not to appeal certain rulings when it likes the ruling and to appeal other rulings. This is not about what the courts have said. The government has consistently pushed an ideological agenda that goes far beyond what the courts have said, and the mental health provision has absolutely nothing to do with the court ruling. The members opposite would sometimes like to dispense with an actual substantive engagement on the topic and just say they are going to let other people make the decision. However, it does not wash, especially in the case where they chose not to appeal the ruling.

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Mr. Mario Simard (Jonquière, BQ)

Feb/13/24 6:52:30 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I will try to be polite because I thought my colleague's speech was quite exaggerated. That is not surprising, because I have heard his leader say in the past that people are requesting MAID because they do not have enough to eat. When the leader is so flippant, it is easy to understand why a member would frame MAID as a conspiracy against life, as a culture of death, as a war of the most powerful against the weak. I would like to pick up on what my colleague was saying. I get the impression that, if we had let him continue a bit longer, he was going to tell us that contraception was also one of those conspiracies against life. I just want to be clear with my colleague. He began his speech by telling us that people might request MAID because they were afraid of being a burden. I just want to let him know, having been through this with family members, that it is because people are afraid of suffering. When we love someone who is suffering and we know that the end is near, we try to do everything possible to make them comfortable. I do not think he understands that.

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Mr. Garnett Genuis

Feb/13/24 6:53:42 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, respectfully to my colleague, I have journeyed with close family members who have suffered significantly at the time of their death. I think one of the biggest challenges we see in this country, and members of the NDP have pointed this out in previous Parliaments, is a significant lack of proper training in pain management and proper available palliative care, as well as instances of people being actively pushed towards death by the system. I am not worried about MAID being offered to everyone; euthanasia is not being offered to everyone. Euthanasia is being offered to certain people in certain situations, reflecting a social and political view of the value of their life. This is what the disability community has pushed Parliament to hear. When we offer suicide facilitation for people with disabilities and prevention for people without disabilities, that clearly sends the wrong message about valuing the universal value and dignity of all human life.

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Mr. Alistair MacGregor (Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, NDP)

Feb/13/24 6:54:46 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-62

Madam Speaker, my hon. colleague is mixing up the timelines here. He keeps referring to eight years; in fact, the essence of the bill we are talking about happened three years ago. Now, if the member wants to talk about someone suffering from stage 4 cancer and just taking some painkillers, I will let him defend himself. However, on what Bill C-62 is doing, we are dealing with a March 17 deadline. This morning, the Conservatives voted against time management of the bill. However, he must understand that we only have two sitting weeks to get the bill to the Governor General's desk. Why did Conservatives vote against that when we are dealing with a hard deadline, understanding that the law will change if we do not get the bill passed?

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Mr. Garnett Genuis

Feb/13/24 6:55:29 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, in terms of legislative timing, the government missed an opportunity to actually resolve this issue when it voted against the private member's bill from my colleague, the member for Abbotsford. Conservatives put forward a bill in the fall that would fix this problem and forever put a stake in this terrible idea of euthanasia for those with mental health challenges. Now, we want the bill before us, which would extend the timeline, to pass so that when we have a Conservative government, we can actually permanently fix this problem. However, it is up to the government to allocate more days for debate; I would suggest that they do so, so more members can speak and so we can get it done before the deadline.

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Mrs. Rachael Thomas (Lethbridge, CPC)

Feb/13/24 6:56:11 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, the number of Canadians ending their lives through medical assistance in dying is accelerating at a rate that outpaces that in any other country. Canada's most recent annual report on medical assistance in dying, which I will call MAID from this point forward, shows that MAID deaths are actually up by 30% from just one year ago. This is not just a one-time occasion or occurrence. Rather, this is actually a trend. Year over year, we are seeing a rapid increase. The matter at hand today, in the most literal sense, is a matter of life and death. Around the world, people are watching Canada and the debate taking place in this House. They are doing so with an overwhelming belief that what the current government is considering is, in fact, reckless. That is extending medical assistance in dying to those with a mental illness. This topic deserves our utmost attention today in this place and, my hope would be, beyond. Last spring, the Liberals created legislation that would grant MAID to those struggling with a mental illness, starting on March 17, which is only a few weeks away. Thanks to the rallying cry of medical experts, those who struggle with a mental illness and concerned Canadians from far and wide, along with Conservative members of Parliament, the government has been forced into a position where they have actually had to hit the pause button. This is not permanent; it is only temporary, lasting for three years. We will then see this legislation back before the House, with the current government desiring to offer medical assistance in dying to those who struggle with a mental illness. When considering whether a mental disorder is irremediable, Parliament has heard from clinicians, who stated that it is only predictable 50% of the time. In other words, 50% of the time, clinicians are able to say that the individual will not recover from the mental illness. The other 50% of the time, they actually get it wrong. It is not the same as a brain tumour, for example, that can be seen on a scan, where there is evidence that can be judged and physical circumstances that can be known. Mental illness does not operate that way. While doctors might be correct 50% of the time, this means that, with regard to a prognosis, they are also wrong 50% of the time. To be very frank, the toss of a coin feels like a rather sad, wrong way to make a life or death decision. That is really what we are talking about: the toss of a coin, where 50% of the time, they get heads, and 50% of the time, they get tails. That is how this decision would be made if we were to move forward with medical assistance in dying for those who have a mental illness. This is absolutely wrong. That Parliament would even consider it is deeply troubling. Of course, we know that this has nothing to do with whether our physicians and our psychiatrists are functioning in an adequate manner. It has everything to do with the fact that mental illnesses are incredibly complex and difficult to understand. It is important, as we engage in this debate, to consider what medical experts are saying. We heard from Physicians Together with Vulnerable Canadians, which reported, “Given that there is no medical evidence to reliably predict which patients with a mental illness will not get better, MAID for mental illness will end the lives of patients who would have recovered.” The Canadian Centre for Suicide Prevention echoed this, reporting, “There is no consensus on the meaning of irremediability for any mental disorder.” Dr. Gaind, chief of psychiatry at Sunnybrook Hospital, raised the alarm; he said, we “cannot predict irremediability when it comes to mental illness”. Dr. Zivot agreed, saying, “mental illness lacks a strict definition and therefore, by lack of definition, can never be grievous and irremediable”. He went on to say that “if MAID becomes a treatment option within mental health care, the bond of trust and the pledge between doctor and patient is destroyed”. Those who live with a mental illness need hope, not death. They need us to believe in them when they are unable to believe in themselves. It is incumbent upon us, as a society, to extend hope, to offer support and to give treatment, not death. When we consider extending medical assistance in dying to those who are suffering from mental illness, many Canadians are left extremely vulnerable. When an offer of death is extended to those who are struggling, we communicate a message that there is really no hope and no opportunity for recovery; we communicate that the best relief would be to exit this life. That lacks compassion. It is deeply troubling. Laurel Walker has been very public about her story. She talks about her darkest days of living with a mental illness, about suicide being an ideation of hers, day after day. Then she talks about the fact that she had this glimmer of hope that somehow kept her alive. She warned Parliament that, if we were to go in this direction of legalizing medical assistance in dying for those who have a mental illness, we would be robbing them of that hope and sending this grave message that, really, death is their only option. Dr. Sareen offered the same warning and shared that making MAID available for mental disorders would undermine suicide prevention efforts and lead to unnecessary deaths. He said: When a society makes MAID available, the population believes it is a way to end suffering. In other jurisdictions that have had MAID available for mental disorders, not only are there deaths due to MAID, but there are also deaths related to non-MAID suicides. In other words, we see an increase not only in medical assistance in dying rates but also in suicide in general. There is this lack of hope and this message conveyed by society that there is no future. As Canadians, we can do better. I dare say we must do better. We cannot give up on people such as Laurel, who are fighting for their very lives. These folks are in desperate need of hope and help. They want treatment, not death. Those struggling with their mental health deserve that element of support. Rather than looking to facilitate the deaths of fellow Canadians who are suffering, we must focus on how we can better provide the needed treatment. In an article, psychiatrist John Maher is quoted as expressing that “Mental illness is treatable, and death is not treatment.” We know that the problem is rarely only mental illness. It is often within the larger context of social challenges as well, whether this is not having basic necessities, such as housing, or a social structural support that is not available to these folks. Again, we have a responsibility as a society to make sure that those things are available to these individuals. Death is not the answer. To my fellow colleagues in this place, I would make the following plea: Let us not just simply push the temporary pause button, as if to say their life is worth something now but, in a few years, it may no longer be. It is as if to say that the flip of a coin might not be acceptable now, but maybe we will flip a coin in three years; that might be okay. Rather, let us commit to permanently valuing those who live with a mental illness, and let us make sure that they are forever offered the adequate health care supports that are needed. Death is not that. Christie Pollock submitted testimony calling for great caution. She is a 30-year-old who has her own struggle. She talks about the hope that she is now able to offer, because she runs a support group. Then she talks about the fact that, if medical assistance in dying had been offered to her, she might not be here. She goes on to say that, sure, she has her struggles, and she is not healed, but she has found a mix of therapy and medication that is getting her through. Her days are filled with hope. It is not just hope for herself; she is also able to offer hope to others. Madam Speaker and members of this House, this is where we should wish to land, where the people of this place offer hope to Canadians, not death.

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Mr. Marcus Powlowski (Thunder Bay—Rainy River, Lib.)

Feb/13/24 7:06:09 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I am not in too much disagreement with a lot of what the member had to say. As a long-time doctor, I certainly know that one ought to be cautious, and I think our government has been pretty cautious. We first put a one-year pause on this; now we have a three-year pause. I hate to get political in this political place, but the reality is that one of the reasons we should hesitate to implement MAID for mental illness is a lack of mental health services. Our government has been fighting to increase those services. Will the Conservative Party make the same commitment to providing adequate mental services for Canadians?

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Mrs. Rachael Thomas

Feb/13/24 7:06:52 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I would ask the hon. member to point to the supports his government has offered to those with mental illness. What we heard in this place, in Parliament, from witness after witness is that the supports are inadequate. People desperately need more support. On this side of the House, I think of my hon. colleague, whose name I am not allowed to use, and his tremendous effort in advocating for support for those who live with a mental illness and his tremendous effort with bringing in a three-digit suicide line to help prevent suicide, and of course we know that is most often associated with a mental illness. Not only are we going to make tremendous efforts when we are in government, but the reality is that we do not wait. We are already making a meaningful difference for Canadians.

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Mr. Sébastien Lemire (Abitibi—Témiscamingue, BQ)

Feb/13/24 7:07:54 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for ruling the amendment in order. The Bloc Québécois used this wording in order to recognize the fact that Quebec is a leader in this area, as proven by the unanimous motion recently adopted by the National Assembly. With this amendment, the Bloc Québécois wants to be able to move things along in Quebec. Does my colleague care about the will of Quebec, whose values are quite different from those defended by the Conservatives? Consequently, if the Conservative Party takes power within three years—which, according to the polls, is not impossible—do they intend to scrap the bill at the end of those three years?

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Mrs. Rachael Thomas

Feb/13/24 7:08:45 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, as Conservatives, our desire is to be on the side of vulnerable Canadians and to be their greatest advocate. Our desire is to listen to the pleas of those who came before the House. That is our job. We have been elected to represent our constituents to the best of our ability, so when it came to hearing testimony on medical assistance in dying being extended to those with a mental illness, we leaned in, listened and did the hard work. Furthermore, we went out and listened to Canadians beyond this place, sitting down with them in our constituency offices and meeting with them during town hall meetings. Our leader also went on tour across the country, leaning in and hearing the concerns of Canadians, and this came up as one that Canadians do not want. They do not want medical assistance in dying to be extended to those who have a mental illness. Instead, they want to see greater support for those who struggle. They want to see a better medical system put in place. They want to see better health care provisions put in place. They want to see greater support from society as a whole.

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Ms. Lori Idlout (Nunavut, NDP)

Feb/13/24 7:10:00 p.m.
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Uqaqtittiji, I appreciate very much the passion the member shared in her intervention. I wonder if the member could share with us what she thinks would happen after March 17 if we do not meet this deadline, this really important deadline, which we need to avoid so we can make sure what she has been talking about is protected. Could she explain to us what she thinks would happen with the March 17 deadline if we were not able to meet it without the amendments being made?

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Mrs. Rachael Thomas

Feb/13/24 7:10:39 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I cannot help but point out the obvious. She is a member of the NDP, which is currently in a coalition with the Liberal government, so in part, it is actually her doing that we are here in this place having this discussion at the eleventh hour. I would encourage her to perhaps work with her party to act differently and to actually act on behalf of Canadians. That said, she is going to have to enter into a conversation with her coalition government to ask it what is going to happen on March 17.

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Mr. Todd Doherty (Cariboo—Prince George, CPC)

Feb/13/24 7:11:22 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, at the outset, I would like to say that I am splitting my time with my hon. colleague from Calgary Rocky Ridge. This is a weighty issue. Over the course of this debate, I have listened intently to all of our colleagues. I am brought back to when we debated this as new members of Parliament in 2016. I said, at that time, that this is perhaps one of the most important pieces of legislation that our generation would be debating and discussing. I also said, at that time, that there is nothing that prepares someone, as a new member of Parliament, to debate and make choices about that piece of legislation. I consulted so many of my constituents, as well as friends of mine in the faith community. I consulted my pastor. I was conflicted as to how I was going to vote. I said at that time, too, that it was troubling for me because we were in the eleventh hour on such an important piece of legislation, and here we are again at the eleventh hour on a piece of legislation that is, quite frankly, literally life and death. I want to make something clear. In the time since MAID became law, I have sat with families who have had loved ones who have chosen MAID. Our family very recently had a loved one who chose MAID, and we are currently dealing with all of the emotions that go along with that. It has been a tough few months for our family, but I now have a greater understanding, I believe, of the complexities of this issue. I do understand both sides of the argument better than I did in 2016. Nevertheless, I firmly believe that expanding MAID to the mentally ill is giving up on people who could be saved. I have spent my eight and a half years of being elected fighting for those who do not have a voice, fighting for mental health awareness, passing bills with respect to post-traumatic stress disorder, and fighting for us, as a nation, to adopt the simple three-digit suicide hotline 988. I have to ask why. Why did I fight so hard if all we are going to do is pass a piece of legislation so somebody who is struggling with a mental illness or mental health issues can choose medically assisted death or suicide? It is deeply troubling for me to see how far we have fallen to where we can perpetuate one's addiction, but we cannot get them into recovery. We have fallen so far to where we are saying it is okay if someone is struggling, as we will offer assistance in death if they are struggling with a mental illness. We are giving up on people. I am disappointed in how we, as a Parliament, have taken the easy way out. Expanding assisted suicide to include people whose sole condition is mental illness will result in the deaths of Canadians who could have gotten better. We have 12 Canadians who die by suicide every day. A further 200 attempt suicide. That is 73,000 Canadians a year who attempt suicide, and those are just the numbers we know of. What are we saying? My colleagues spoke very passionately about the statistics and the feedback from experts about mental illness and the irremediability of it. It is like a coin flip as to whether somebody can recover from it or not. In preparing for this debate, I was reminded of a young man long ago who had enough of the abuse and dysfunction he was growing up with. He had lost a brother in a horrific car crash. He wanted to die and attempted suicide, but was found and saved by a loved one. That same gentleman tried it again, but for the bitterness of the metal of the weapon he chose to use, I dare to think what could have happened. I think about if that young man, so many years ago, was successful in wanting to die by suicide. That young man would not have married his high school sweetheart, had four amazing children and a beautiful granddaughter, and travelled the world so many times to see and experience things that some will only ever be able to experience through the wonders of the Internet. I think about that young man taking a chance in 2014 to run for office. I think about that young man who was elected in 2015 to represent his hometown riding of Cariboo—Prince George and how he would have missed out on all those opportunities. I think about that every day when we talk about suicide and doing whatever we can to get the message across that we should always choose life, that hope is always possible. Whatever it is that somebody is going through, it may seem so dark, but light is just a short hand away. That young man is me and, for the first time, I am sharing this. I think about that all the time when we do what we do here in the House, when we are fighting for those who do not have a voice. If somebody had not told me that life is worth living and asked to let them help me at that time, there are so many things I would have missed out on. I appreciate the debate that we have had in the House, but I am saying that today we should be fighting every minute for those who are struggling, to tell them that hope is always possible and life is worth living. I will continue to fight for that as long as I am elected.

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Mr. Joël Lightbound (Louis-Hébert, Lib.)

Feb/13/24 7:21:25 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-211

Madam Speaker, the member is a colleague I have always enjoyed working with. I remember one of the very first files I was asked to work on as Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Health back in 2017 was his private member's bill, Bill C-211, on post-traumatic stress disorder, so I know it means a great deal to him, and I appreciate his speech. I voted with our colleague from the other side to completely abandon the idea of opening MAID to people solely affected by mental illness. I have been convinced, through the discussions I have had with psychiatrists from across the country, that we are not ready nor is it desirable to go down that path for various reasons. One of them is that it is hard to say for certain that a mental illness is irremediable, but another aspect that moved me is that, if someone were to have access to that, theoretically, we would need to exhaust all possible treatment options. As we know, in this country, treatment options are sometimes, depending on the regions, hard to access, so I would like to have his comments on that.

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Mr. Todd Doherty

Feb/13/24 7:22:32 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, my hon. colleague is absolutely right. We do not treat mental illness in parity with physical illness. If I have a broken arm, we can see that injury and will offer all our assistance to it, but if I am struggling with mental illness or mental health challenges, it is an invisible illness and an invisible injury, and we do not do enough as a nation to put those supports in place. That is why I said we are giving up on Canadians when we take the easy way out. We need to put more resources in place so that people can get the help they need when they need it, wherever they need it and for as long as they need it.

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Mr. Luc Thériault (Montcalm, BQ)

Feb/13/24 7:23:24 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I have great deal of compassion for my colleague and want to thank him for so generously sharing his life experience. He says he speaks for those who have no voice, and he is living proof that suicidal ideation is reversible. I wonder if he could dig a bit deeper and acknowledge that there are people who have no voice, who have yet to find a psychiatric treatment that eases their suffering and who struggle with mental disorders? What solutions does he have for them after 30 years of treatment?

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Mr. Todd Doherty

Feb/13/24 7:24:15 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I have sat with many people who have struggled for their lives with mental illness and mental health challenges. The greatest issue many of them have is that they do not have adequate access to help and that they constantly are waiting for help. I think we need to first go down the path of doing everything in our power to remove the barriers for care so that we can help those who feel helpless and we can provide hope in their times of despair. I believe life is always worth fighting for. When somebody is struggling, I will always tell them that life is worth fighting for. We do whatever we can to fight for them.

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Mr. Blaine Calkins (Red Deer—Lacombe, CPC)

Feb/13/24 7:25:21 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I want to thank my colleague from Cariboo—Prince George for his excellent work in bringing the 988 number, which is now finally implemented and seeing great use. I want to thank my colleague for always being a passionate advocate, not only for his constituents, and for always doing the right thing. I can say that I am going to rest easier tonight knowing that there is somebody who is never going to give up on me. I really do appreciate that from my colleague, and I want to thank him for joining me. We will never give up on those who feel like giving up.

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Mr. Todd Doherty

Feb/13/24 7:26:05 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, that is my motto. It is “never give up”. In our darkest days and our darkest moments it is easy to find a permanent solution to a temporary problem, and that is suicide. I believe with every fibre in my body that life is worth fighting for. We just have to be able to have those moments of clarity. Sometimes it is hard to find those moments of clarity. Sometimes it is hard to see the light through the trees, but it is there. I am living proof of it.

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