44th Parl. 1st Sess.
May 9, 2023 10:00AM
- May/9/23 10:33:17 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, as the hon. member for Repentigny rightly pointed out, we have been discussing the issue of foreign interference, particularly Chinese interference, for several weeks now. We know that the government has blundered on several fronts when it comes to dealing with interference. We saw it with the elections and with the $125-million endowment it gave to a foundation several years ago out of the public purse—our money. I am talking about the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation, of course.
The foundation is having major problems, especially on the tax front. For many years, the foundation has failed to meet the criteria for a charitable organization, and things are only going to get worse, because the criteria are increasing and the foundation is not doing anything to improve.
What does my colleague have to say to members about the threat that Chinese interference poses to charitable organizations in Canada?
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- May/9/23 10:50:46 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, I have intervened on this topic several times to implore members of the House to lower the temperature. I applaud the member who just spoke, because she did attempt to lower the temperature in the House and focus on real solutions.
How does the member see a way out of this impasse in the House, where everything is being held up? Would she agree with me that the things that were in the Conservative motion were quite reasonable, including the necessity of calling a public inquiry, so we are not constantly saying ”he said, she said” about what has happened here and we can get an independent authority to judge the facts about foreign interference?
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- May/9/23 10:51:27 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, a public inquiry would be one of the ways. A foreign registry would be another way.
Canada does not have a legal definition for political interference. What we have to do is find other things that happen, where diplomats are potentially breaking other laws, in order for us to investigate them.
A foreign registry would allow us a legal definition, perhaps, of what interference is. The Australians have that. This would be a good model to look at.
If the government were actually serious about this, it would at least engage in conversation and not just disparage members of the House.
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- May/9/23 11:02:57 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, when it comes to foreign interference, it is really important to recognize, as I have, that foreign interference has been taking place for many years, even when Stephen Harper was there. Stephen Harper was aware of it.
How does the member justify the secretive trade agreement or Stephen Harper doing nothing? The Prime Minister found out about this last week for the very first time. Within a week, that diplomat was asked to leave the country.
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- May/9/23 11:47:48 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, I apologize. I was not referring to him. I was talking about the Prime Minister. I am sorry and I will never do that again, unless I make a mistake.
Now let us talk about Chinese interference. Chinese interference is very serious. It poses a threat to democracy. According to the intelligence services, it is the greatest known threat to Canada. This is very serious. It seems to me that the guardian of democracy in Canada is the Prime Minister. It is up to him to ensure that we have a healthy democracy. This guy was democratically elected, so I think it would be in his interest to try to protect our democracy.
This all began in the fall of 2022. Honestly, there are so many elements to Chinese interference, but I will focus on the most important ones. I will address all of them and try to find the common threads, in other words, the same issues that keep coming up over and over again. Members will see where I am going with this.
In the fall, we read in the papers that China had interfered in 11 ridings in 2019. We asked the Prime Minister what was going on. He said that he had no idea, that he had never heard anything about it. When we asked again, he compared us to Trump, of all people. I cannot say we were happy about being compared to Trump. The Prime Minister accused the opposition of saying that the elections were not legitimate, despite the fact that no one in the opposition had said anything of the sort. That made us angry.
We answered that we were not saying that the Liberals had not won the election, but that we simply wanted to know what happened in 11 ridings. The Prime Minister told us that he had no knowledge of this. Right after that, he went to the G20. I can still see it. He told us he did not know what was happening, but at the G20, he ran after Xi Jinping to talk to him, as if he had no one else to talk to. He spoke to Xi Jinping for so long that Xi got fed up. The Prime Minister told us that he had talked to Xi about interference.
However, he had told us that he had no knowledge of any of this and that the election results were not illegitimate. Why did he talk to the president about interference? That is the first problem. Was he joking? Is the Prime Minister a joker? Perhaps he is.
There was also interference in 2021. I would like to remind the House that this is a minority government. According to the final polls, it was a close race. The Chinese interfered in 11 or 15 ridings in 2019. Since then, they must have practised and gotten better at it, because they may have interfered in up to 15 or 20 ridings. It does not take a PhD in math to understand that, if someone can influence the election results in 10 or 15 ridings where the Liberals and Conservatives are neck and neck, that could mean victory or defeat for one of the parties. It could determine which party forms government. This is no laughing matter.
We know that the Chinese government is fond of the Liberals. It likes them. It believes it could get close to the Liberals without much trouble. It would prefer a minority Liberal government. The Chinese government is not as fond of the Conservatives. It is a well-known fact. This is troubling.
We told the Prime Minister that the issue had to be dealt with before the next election. We have a minority government, which means that an election could be called at any time. We need to resolve this problem quickly to make sure that the dice are not loaded when the next election happens. That will take intelligent action.
Then we learned that, in 2021, the member for Don Valley North apparently spoke to the Chinese consulate and even asked them not to free the two Michaels, so as not to favour the Conservative Party. It is not always easy to grasp all the arguments in this affair. It is about as easy as eating an apple through a tennis racquet. I do not really understand it, but, in any case, that is what happened. Obviously, the Prime Minister says that he was unaware. The Liberal member for Don Valley North is now an independent member, despite the fact that he had the Prime Minister’s support. It is troubling.
Then there is the Trudeau Foundation debacle, and that is a real circus.
If anyone thinks they understand something about the Trudeau Foundation, it is because someone explained it wrong. It is complicated, so we are looking into that. Apparently, in 2016, the Chinese government donated $140,000 to the Trudeau Foundation.
The Prime Minister says that he has not had anything to do with the foundation for 10 years. That is another joke. He is a real card. He says that neither he nor his office has had anything to do with the foundation.
Then again, his brother is involved in the foundation. In 2016, the Prime Minister’s Office called the foundation about the Chinese donation. After that, the Prime Minister asked Morris Rosenberg, the former CEO of the Trudeau Foundation, to look into the matter and determine whether there had been any Chinese interference. In Mr. Rosenberg’s massive report, there are four lines about Chinese interference and that is to say that there is none. The Prime Minister then asked David Johnston to act as special rapporteur so he could decide on whether there is a need for an independent public inquiry. Mr. Johnston told him that that was a big ask, that he was not sure he could answer right away, and that he would study the situation for two months. It is like Rodin’s The Thinker: everyone is waiting.
While we are waiting, other things are happening. All of these people are from the Trudeau Foundation. The Prime Minister goes to spend Christmas with a friend who is involved in the Trudeau Foundation. His office also hosted the Trudeau Foundation.
Do they take me for a fool? The Prime Minister says that he has not had anything to do with the foundation for 10 years. He keeps repeating it. The members of his government keep repeating it. The government House leader rises and says that he has not had anything to do with the foundation for 10 years. Does he believe that? The Liberals are in trouble. They believe that guy, when everyone knows that it is all complete nonsense, and it just goes on and on.
The latest news is about the police stations. There are two in Quebec. That is new. The Minister of Public Safety was very serious last week when he said that they had been closed. We called, and they are still open.
How can he not know that? Before saying something, he should check it. He is a minister. He also has a team. If he does not have time to check, he can ask his friend to call and find out.
They are still open. It is troubling. One of these police stations is five minutes away by bike in my riding. I will say it again, this is troubling.
Here is the cherry on the sundae. Now I come to the present day. Two years ago, the hon. member for Wellington—Halton Hills and his family received threats. Once again, the Prime Minister says he was unaware. Jody Thomas, his national security adviser, said she was aware, but he was not. Is he telling jokes, or is he a little lost? I am putting it extremely politely, but that is what we must ask ourselves.
Now, we have a member who was threatened by the Chinese government because he voted against its wishes. We do not care about its wishes. It did not elect us.
I just said that. The Prime Minister will never be able to say that the hon. member for La Prairie may have been threatened. We do not know. The hon. member for Wellington—Halton Hills was threatened two years ago, but we did not find out about it until this week. The government still says it was unaware.
I swear that if I were the prime minister of Canada, which will never happen, but let us just pretend for a moment, and I found out that a member had been threatened, I would be throwing the diplomat out five seconds later. It would not take me five weeks or five days. In just five seconds, he would be out on his ear.
If the Prime Minister had learned about this right away, he could have thrown him out and told him to beat it. Instead, he procrastinated. The Liberals got together to figure out what they should do. The Prime Minister knew two years ago, the rascal.
He knew two years ago. Now they are getting together to figure out what they should do. The opposition demanded that this person be ejected. They said that they could not do that and that it is no easy thing to expel an ambassador.
Finally, yesterday, they bought themselves a spine and announced they would be throwing him out. Now they are patting themselves on the back like they are heroes.
We do not believe that. Are any other members of the House being threatened by China? We do not know. It is troubling. It is very troubling.
Members of the House and their families may be under threat. The Prime Minister may know this is happening, but he will not say. The Prime Minister is a cross between Ulysses and Pontius Pilate. Happy the man who, like Ulysses, has travelled well.
There is one thing this Prime Minister likes. He likes to travel. Last weekend, when he was in front of the Liberals, he was happy because he was travelling to see the King—
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- May/9/23 12:38:18 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, foreign interference in nothing new. Let me provide a quick run-down. First there was the contract for embassy equipment awarded to Nuctech, a Chinese company. Next we have the telecommunications contract for border services and protections for the Prime Minister awarded to a company using products from Hytera, a Chinese company. Then we have the Trudeau Foundation, the National Microbiology Laboratory in Winnipeg and the illegal police stations. Let us not forget the delayed release of the two Michaels and the threats to an MP and his family.
How many so-called coincidences will it take for this government to understand that Chinese interference is real, and that an independent public commission of inquiry is absolutely critical? When will this government finally take action to send a clear message to the Chinese government that Quebec and Canada are not for sale?
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- May/9/23 1:03:23 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, the member has talked a lot about the foreign interference that has taken place in our country beyond just my colleague who we are speaking of directly. He also raised the point that in committee the Prime Minister's chief of staff stated that nothing was ever withheld from him and that he read everything.
Given that intelligence reports have been produced with regard to my hon. colleague and the harassing nature of Beijing toward him and his family, given that those reports have been released and given that the Prime Minister has access to everything and nothing is ever withheld, that he reads everything and never ignores a thing, I wonder what my hon. colleague might say to the Liberals' proclamation that the Prime Minister somehow did not see these documents.
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- May/9/23 1:07:40 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, we have been listening to this debate intently. There has been a lot of information that has come out over the last couple of weeks as a result of CSIS and The Globe and Mail. I am going to suggest that there is a disconnect between government, our security establishment and certainly the information that is being leaked to the media. There is only one option, and it is the only option that Parliament should be seized with, but also Canadians are showing a willingness and a desire for an open public inquiry into foreign interference, and I am wondering if my hon. colleague shares those sentiments.
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- May/9/23 1:27:00 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I listened with great interest to my colleague, with whom I serve on the public safety committee. He reflected on his career in law enforcement and his profound shock and disappointment at the foreign interference and the intimidation of the member for Wellington—Halton Hills. We all share that concern.
I also note that the member opposite spent a considerable amount of time talking about how much he supported the convoy that occupied Ottawa and how much time he spent with the organizers of that convoy. I would like to know if he is as concerned about the Russian foreign interference that took place during the support of the convoy—
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- May/9/23 1:27:53 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. member opposite, having supported the convoy, and having met with the organizers of the convoy, if he is equally concerned about Russia's interference in amplifying the message of the convoy. If so, what does he propose to do about Russia's interference in that situation?
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- May/9/23 1:32:47 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, there it is. We see members of the Liberal Party and the NDP focused on the freedom movement, which really stood up for freedom and what the current government was doing. My question for the member is related to this, because it shows the Liberals' level of disregard. Instead of looking at Chinese Communist foreign interference and dealing with that issue, they were attacking their own citizens at that time.
I was just at PROC, where we had two witnesses who testified three times. Every time they attempted to testify and speak, there was a broadcast interruption. I talked to one of the witnesses, who said that when she said she was going to testify, her computer went down.
If the current government would have taken foreign interference seriously, as the party across the way does, we would not be in this situation. Is the member confident that the current Prime Minister and the Liberal government have the backs of Canadians with respect to foreign interference?
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- May/9/23 1:35:39 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, that is a unique question, and I thank the member for it.
The issue is this: The evidence that has been presented is non-partisan, and it is pretty clear. Yes, I support a public inquiry. Therefore, my question back would be this: Would the current government actually act on the findings of a public inquiry to improve our country's ability to reduce, limit and stop foreign interference?
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- May/9/23 2:20:31 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, the Conservative Party knows full well that the police in this country operate independently. They are expected to do their job to keep Canadians safe, and they will continue to do that.
The member is suggesting that we have done nothing about foreign interference. We have appointed former governor general David Johnston as an independent special rapporteur to follow up. We are establishing a foreign influence registry. We are defending the proper functioning of the House by expelling a Chinese diplomat, and we will continue to work to protect Canadians.
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- May/9/23 2:22:19 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister is being disingenuous when he tells Canadians that he is taking this seriously.
We need a foreign agent registry, like the ones that exist in Australia and the U.S. We need a national public inquiry into foreign interference. We need to shut down the illegal police stations operating in Canada that harass innocent civilians, which the Minister of Public Safety told Canadians were already shut. They are not.
Once again, he has misled Canadians. When will he end this charade?
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- May/9/23 2:24:36 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, let us talk about interference. What interference are we talking about specifically? Are we talking about China's interference in Canada or McKinsey's interference in Canada?
McKinsey is behind the proposal to increase Canada's population to 100 million by the end of the century. The Prime Minister surely must have held consultations about such an extraordinarily important initiative. I would like to know what Quebec said when he consulted it about having a population of 100 million, or 500,000 more people a year, unless he did not talk to Quebec.
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- May/9/23 2:27:04 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, foreign interference is a serious threat to our democracy. A member of Parliament and his family were targeted by a foreign government for his vote in the House. Imagine what it is like for thousands of families across our country that fled governments that were oppressive only to come to Canada and have those threats follow them.
The Prime Minister will not even call a public inquiry. How can he keep the rest of Canadians facing serious threats safe?
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- May/9/23 2:27:33 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, from the very beginning, we have always taken threats to Canadians around foreign interference extremely seriously, which is why we have created new mechanisms and new tools to counter foreign interference. It is why we have actually appointed an independent expert to look at the foreign interference landscape and to ensure that we have all the tools we need and to create more, including a public inquiry if necessary.
We will follow the advice of the independent expert. The expert is the one who is best placed to say how we move forward.
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- May/9/23 2:28:10 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, let me help the Prime Minister. It is necessary. We need it.
Foreign interference has a real impact on people's lives. It has a real impact on the Chinese community and on several communities in Canada. Imagine what it must be like for families fleeing repressive governments. They come to Canada and the threats—
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- May/9/23 2:28:49 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, we need a public inquiry. It is necessary.
Foreign interference has a real impact on communities across the country. We saw the impact on the Chinese community, but there are several other communities that are also suffering the consequences.
Imagine what it must be like for families fleeing repressive governments. They arrive in Canada and the threats continue. This government is turning its back on these people. It is radio silence. It is doing nothing to protect these families.
Why is the Prime Minister not calling a public inquiry and why is he not protecting these families?
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- May/9/23 2:30:50 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, by now my colleague will know that the RCMP provided an update that it has taken action to disrupt the activities of these so-called police stations. As we heard the Prime Minister say, it is this government's expectation that, if any such foreign interference activities occur or pop up again, it will take the necessary action to keep our communities safe.
More to the point, there is $49 million to assist the RCMP in budget 2023. Instead of tough talk and sabre-rattling, Conservatives should support that budget so we can protect our communities from foreign interference.
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