44th Parl. 1st Sess.
November 1, 2022 10:00AM
- Nov/1/22 10:47:40 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, I was stunned by what I heard from my colleague across the aisle. He would have us believe that there were no problems with ArriveCAN. One would think this was Alice in Wonderland. According to the member opposite it was a great success, when, really, it caused complete chaos.
Our constituency offices received complaints from people in a state of panic who were afraid of being fined. Now we are learning that the app cost a fortune and needed constant updates, and it still never worked properly, sending out incorrect notifications. According to the Liberals, though, everything went great. I am trying to understand.
Were the Liberals the only ones who actually figured out how ArriveCAN worked?
Maybe only Liberals could understand the app, or perhaps it was willful blindness.
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- Nov/1/22 10:52:04 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, it would seem that the debate today is all about ArriveCAN, and it should be, because the questions are very good.
The app was, first of all, mandatory, so I find it interesting that the minister bragged about how many people downloaded the app. They had to download the app; they did not have an option.
The real question is the $54 million that it cost. We already know payments were made to companies who did not even know they got paid, and that all this money was lost. Will the government actually audit the money that was spent and figure out, number one, why it cost so much more than it should have cost for what it did, and number two, where all this money went that nobody knows about? Who got rich on this?
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- Nov/1/22 11:37:44 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, I would like to know what my colleague thinks about the government's intention to keep using ArriveCAN given all the access problems users have had, all the bugs in the software and the fact that travellers will likely stop using it.
What does the member think of the government's intention to keep using this app?
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- Nov/1/22 11:39:20 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, since the government has the ability to develop its own apps, and we have seen that already with other apps during COVID, why does he think the Liberals decided to go outside of government for this app, and elaborately do so with a bill of $52 million?
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- Nov/1/22 12:07:47 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for his very insightful comments.
What does he think of the secrecy surrounding the ArriveCAN app and the fact that we have to search for and find answers and that this all seems to have been done in secret?
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- Nov/1/22 1:22:05 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, obviously we agree on the need for transparency.
I also think we agree on the fact that the app cost too much and that far too much money was spent developing it. However, I think that the most important thing here is that we need to get value for our money, but we are not.
I think we agree on the need for transparency. I think we also agree that we should be getting a return on our investment.
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- Nov/1/22 1:45:26 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, do not worry about being in disbelief. Welcome to my world for the last seven years.
The member asks about the app and the way the app was being applied. The Conservatives were calling on the government to do something about this. I read direct quotes by the member for Durham when he was the leader of the opposition, and there are quotes from the member for Carleton. They were demanding that the federal government close the borders until we could set up a secure way to let people in. That is exactly what we did. We set up a secure way and, yes, doing secure operations in a G7 country costs money. However, they will dumb it down by saying not to worry about it and that they could have done it in their basement for 200 grand.
It is up to you, Madam Speaker, who you want to take seriously on that.
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- Nov/1/22 3:30:25 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, first of all, the vaccine obviously was a helpful tool during the pandemic, but it was not a means to mandate things and to drive a wedge in the country. That is what the government has done. We see programs like the ArriveCAN app that waste $54 million, which is just a drop in the bucket of some of the other scandals the government has had. The Liberals have managed to use these issues as a way to divide Canadians and to further line the pockets of their Liberal friends. That is a problem.
That is why we have this motion on the table today to get the Auditor General to look at the performance of the app. It is a simple motion. I hope the member will be supporting it.
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- Nov/1/22 3:43:59 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I have a two-part question for the member opposite.
The first part is about the fairness of the app. There are many Canadians in my riding, such as seniors, who do not have Internet, email or access to the app. More importantly, I have an Amish community, which does not use phones, does not have Internet, does not drive and does not vote. They are now facing a quarter of a million dollars in fines as a community. Does the member think that is fair, or is it discriminatory against those Canadians?
As to the second part, he talked about the efficiency of the app, why it cost $54 million and its effectiveness. The Ottawa bureau chief of The Globe and Mail said the day before yesterday that when he was going through customs, where there were huge lineups, he asked about the ArriveCAN app and the long lineups. The border officer laughed and said the app is irrelevant so he should not bother using it. Does the member have anything to say about that?
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- Nov/1/22 3:45:01 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound for his concerns with regard to the usage of the ArriveCAN app.
We want to make sure that the experience of all Canadians using the ArriveCAN app is efficient, quick and smooth. Obviously, there are travellers who need assistance, and assistance was available for travellers requiring it, if they needed it.
I have elderly parents. They travelled during the time when COVID-19 was here and when the app was in use, and we did assist them with that. It was very efficient and smooth for them, including for my 87-year-old father, who had the app on his smart phone and utilized it. It was a good experience.
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- Nov/1/22 3:45:51 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I enjoy watching my Liberal colleagues trying to defend the ArriveCAN app today. I do not know if my colleagues travelled a little during the time that this app was in effect and saw how seniors in particular grappled with this complicated app or how border services agents tried to help people. What a waste of time. That said, I agree that some measures had to be implemented. I am not disputing that.
I would like to ask my colleague a question. Are the people who developed the ArriveCAN app at a cost of $54 million part of the same group who were awarded contracts for Roxham Road and who are part of the Liberal Party's entourage? I just want to know if there is a relationship between these two groups.
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- Nov/1/22 3:46:39 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I am going to attempt to answer the question by the hon. member for Drummond. My interpretation may not have been working. I am not sure if it is just mine or that of other colleagues. I did not get the interpretation, but I think I understood the question.
With regard to the cost of the app, which many members have asked about, we can look at the full cost and operation of the app over the two years, with the many upgrades, the service call centre, the adjustments that were made, the number of professionals involved, the storage of data and so forth. Obviously, given the measure that was introduced, we cannot look at the microcosm of just the app itself.
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- Nov/1/22 3:48:11 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, look, having transparency and accountability in how every level of government is spending money is imperative for taxpayers, including the taxpayers in my riding of Vaughan—Woodbridge.
I know that all of the processes and procedures were followed by the Government of Canada in the procurement process for the app. If members would like to go to the CBSA website, there is a breakdown of how the monies were spent with regard to the ArriveCAN app, and, for that matter, with regard to all of the measures that were put in place during COVID-19, which was an extraordinary period of time in our country and the world's history.
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- Nov/1/22 4:12:58 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, the member's record in the past has not been so kind, so I appreciate it.
The magnitude of the fault of this app extends so far. When we think about a little convenience store that benefits from somebody crossing the border to come visit their parents, that benefits from tourism, how do we calculate that when that person did not get to cross the border because the Liberals doubled down in August and made it only digital. Seniors, anybody who did not have a smart phone, or anybody who did not want to download the app could not use it. If that is not discriminatory, I do not know what is.
I do not know how many seniors came into my constituency office and said they did not know how to use the app and asked me to help them. Then, when we would do it together, it would work. We will hear Liberals say that it worked fine, and I am sure it worked fine sometimes, but that is not good enough when we have a whole industry at stake. That is not good enough when we are supposed to be helping Canadians restore travel confidence. That is not good enough when people are wrongfully fined and quarantined. This happened to 10,000 people.
This is absolutely an important motion we should all be open to, because why are we elected? We are elected to serve our constituents, to serve Canadians. Why are we elected? We are elected to be accountable. If there is a $54-million app and the government does not know how it was paid for, then we owe it to Canadians to find out why.
Again, please let us get the Auditor General to conduct an audit, including the payments, contracts and subcontracts for all aspects of the ArriveCAN app, and to prioritize this investigation.
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- Nov/1/22 4:16:52 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I heard my colleague say in her speech that we have lost so much money because of this app, or $54 million. I completely agree with her. That $54 million is a lot of money for an app used for two or three years. That is too much money that could have been spent on other things.
Last week, the Bloc Québécois moved a motion to get rid of an expense that costs us $70 million every year. We were criticized for not getting our priorities straight. I do not really have any questions. My colleague may want to comment on that.
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- Nov/1/22 4:18:31 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, one of the things that has been on my mind is whether any other countries around the world have something like the ArriveCAN app. I checked. At least among our peers in the G20, not a single one has an app like this, not Germany, South Korea, India, the U.K., South Africa or Japan. I will not name them all, but there are 20 of them.
The exception is Canada. We have this app that cost $54 million, an app that Canadians did not need and cannot afford. Could my hon. colleague comment on the fact that we spent $54 million on something that was apparently not necessary in the eyes of our G20 peers?
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- Nov/1/22 4:26:32 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, since I got vaccinated, I had a piece of paper that I could have shown customs officers. That would have cost the price of a sheet of paper, and it would have allowed me to cross the border.
Instead, everyone had to enter their information in the ArriveCAN app, otherwise they could not enter Canada. I had an app provided by the Quebec government that allowed me to show my proof of vaccination. Instead, the federal government wanted its own app, because it just had to get involved, or rather it wanted to reward good Liberal friends by handing out more valuable and juicy contracts.
That is why the Auditor General needs to get to the bottom of everything pertaining to the ArriveCAN app.
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- Nov/1/22 4:56:34 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I realize that our hon. colleague often uses the strategy of opening up a bunch of topics of discussion and then asking an unrelated question, making it hard for us to respond to all the arguments he was putting forward.
I will respond to the first point. When it comes to transparency, my colleague from Winnipeg North said that opposition members claim that the Liberals do not seem to believe in accountability. Forgive me, but if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck. We know the Liberals hate being scrutinized. They voted against a motion that would have directed the committee on which I sit to study the ArriveCAN app. That answers the first question.
Next, the member asked if the app was necessary. There were other models. Why was this not discussed in a transparent way? The objective at this point is more about determining why this app cost much more than it should have. That is the question.
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