SoVote

Context: House Hansard - 112 - Oct/18/22

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.)

Oct/18/22 11:48:29 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, the only thing I would add to the member's comments is a reflection in terms of our Ukrainian heritage community in Canada. There are 1.3 million people of Ukrainian heritage, and it goes well beyond the people of Ukrainian heritage, I must say, but when they hear a leader who sits in the chair of a premier, it draws a great deal of attention. I wonder if the member could provide her thoughts in regard to the people of Canada and how they might be interpreting what this newly elected premier has stated.

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Ms. Jenny Kwan

Oct/18/22 11:49:18 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, I cannot imagine what Ukrainians here in Canada must think when they hear those comments. I cannot imagine what Ukrainians, who are faced with this war in Ukraine, where their loved ones, children, women and civilians are getting killed, must be thinking. I cannot imagine what the global community must be thinking of Canada, when we have a premier, in that kind of leadership role, making that kind of comment. It is shocking. I am not Ukrainian, and I am so angry about it. It is unjustified and unacceptable, and there must be an apology—

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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès)

Oct/18/22 11:50:11 a.m.
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The hon. member for Yorkton—Melville.

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Mrs. Cathay Wagantall (Yorkton—Melville, CPC)

Oct/18/22 11:50:14 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, I really appreciated listening to what the member had to say today. I certainly share her grief over the number of people who are being attacked in this whole situation in Ukraine, which is very dear to me as my mom is from there. She also spoke about the fact that many people are dying and drew attention to the pregnant women, who are in their most vulnerable state, who are being killed, and specifically in relation to the loss of a child in the womb in this circumstance of an illegal war. I would like to ask her, in this case, if she has that same feeling with respect to a third party attacking any woman who is pregnant and causing her to lose the child she is choosing to carry to term.

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Ms. Jenny Kwan

Oct/18/22 11:51:08 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, seriously, I will just say this to the member. For the sentiment she has expressed about pregnant Ukrainian women getting killed, maybe she can send this message to the Premier of Alberta: Apologize.

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Mr. Charlie Angus (Timmins—James Bay, NDP)

Oct/18/22 11:51:32 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, one of the really disturbing things that Premier Danielle Smith used her platform for was to say that Ukraine has nuclear weapons, which we know is false. This is part of the Putin propaganda. When we raise Danielle Smith in the House, we have not seen a single Conservative speak up, yet the member for Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan decided to try to avoid the conversation about the refusal of the Conservatives to denounce pro-Putin propaganda and start speaking about nuclear disarmament. I find it ironic that when the Conservatives are asked to make a simple statement as to whether they support Danielle Smith's claims that Ukraine deserved the attack and that Russia had a right to be upset with it, and the other falsehoods she is perpetuating, we have not seen a single Alberta Conservative stand up and say it is wrong. I want to ask my hon. colleague this. Why does she think the member for Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan and the rest of the Alberta and Saskatchewan caucuses are rallying to try to divert attention from the despicable language coming out of the Premier of Alberta regarding pro-Putin propaganda?

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Ms. Jenny Kwan

Oct/18/22 11:52:43 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, my colleague is dead on with his comments. It is despicable. It is wrong. It is funny that the Conservatives cannot find the courage to speak up, at least not so far. I would ask any one of them to say clearly that what the Premier of Alberta has said is wrong and to demand an apology. It is so important for Canadians to stand united and send a clear message. We cannot afford to have a premier in this country say that the war that Putin has waged on Ukraine is justified.

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Mr. Francis Scarpaleggia (Lac-Saint-Louis, Lib.)

Oct/18/22 11:53:31 a.m.
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Madam Speaker, I rise today to speak to this motion, though my reason for being in the House this morning was to get up and speak to Bill S-5. There will be time for that, obviously, a little later on. I have been listening intently to the words of all members in the House, and it is obvious that all of us, all Canadians, are profoundly scandalized by the war crimes that we have witnessed through the news. We are scandalized by the disregard for the international order that has been displayed by Vladimir Putin and those who are working with him to carry on this illegal invasion of a peace-loving country that seeks only democracy and freedom. We are all profoundly scandalized by what is going on. We live here in a free land. We live in a land that is essentially free of violence, and it is certainly free of persecution. While we understand and are repelled by what is going on, we are really seeing it through the intermediary of the news, of the TV news and of the newspapers that we read. I cannot imagine what it must be like to be living in a war zone. I know that when President Zelenskyy spoke to us a few months ago, he tried to bring it home to us by asking us to reflect on what it would be like if we were living in downtown Toronto, like many MPs here live in downtown Toronto, and one morning we woke to the sound of bombardment bringing down structures as iconic as the CN Tower and whatnot. He asked us to reflect on what that would be like. How would we explain that to our children, who would be completely perplexed and puzzled and fearful? I think that was a very important approach that President Zelenskyy employed to make us try to understand what it is like on the ground. I do not think we really can, but we are seeking to understand, and even though we are not on the ground, we are no less disgusted and repelled by what Vladimir Putin has done. My generation never thought we would ever see another war in Europe. We thought that the First World War and the Second World War had driven home the point that conflict can lead only to mass suffering and destruction and all kinds of economic and human pain. We never thought we would see the day, but obviously this has taught us all, in some way, a lesson, a lesson that I think veterans understand. I know we are approaching Remembrance Day and we go to Remembrance Day events and reflect on the past and on past sacrifices. We underscore the sacrifice of those who fought for liberty, but somehow we always think that this was something from the past, which it was, but also that it was something that would never recur, at least not in a European context. I was reflecting on Remembrance Day just the other day, because it is coming up and we will all be asked, most likely, to speak at ceremonies. I was thinking about how the context of this year is so different, because we will not be thinking just of past sacrifices; we will not be thinking just of all that veterans have done to protect our freedom and our democracy. I think we will look at their message in a different light. Yes, there is the sacrifice, but the veterans are also sending us a message. They are saying that they understand something that maybe not everyone understands for not having been through war, that authoritarianism has not disappeared. The impulse toward authoritarianism has not disappeared. Authoritarianism can raise its ugly head very quickly, even in Europe and even though we never thought we would ever see that day. I think there is a special, additional meaning to Remembrance Day this year, which is that we have to be on guard against authoritarianism. We should be grateful that there are many courageous individuals who volunteer for the armed forces, knowing that they are making sacrifices just by being in the armed forces but also that they may be called upon to make great sacrifices at times of conflict. As we know, our Canadian military is helping out over in Europe, offering training to Ukrainians. The thing about authoritarianism is that it can be defeated through military action. We saw that in World War II. The military action of the allies was particularly effective. However, there is another element that is required to defeat authoritarianism, and that is dissidence from within. I marvel at those who stand up to authoritarian regimes, whether it be in Iran or those who are protesting in Moscow and no doubt throughout Russia. I do not know what it means to fear that what I say would provoke a violent reaction against me and my family. We all get up and say things about other members. We criticize their positions and we even use a little humour sometimes to put down the point of view of the other, but we never walk out of this place thinking we are the target for somebody now. This is true of our entire society. We can stand up to political leaders, and people do it all the time. We can mock political leaders and we can satirize political leaders, and so on and so forth, without ever having any fear of retribution. This is something that should be underscored, because there are people putting their lives on the line to stand up to people like Vladimir Putin and to stand up to the Iranian regime, knowing that they could wind up behind bars in what I would say are some very awful conditions that would be foreign to incarceration in our own country. It is very important that we salute the dissidents. As I think of dissidents, many in the House are probably too young to remember the stature that a dissident like Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn had all over the world, but especially in North America. I remember how former President Carter and his wife, Rosalynn Carter, embraced Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and his cause, and how he had the courage to write things that Soviet authorities were not too pleased with, and he paid the price. This is someone who was actually in the military himself. He was a military person who had fought in the war, but he saw certain things that he did not agree with and he wrote about them in an eloquent manner, and in a voluminous manner. His books were very large tomes, whether we are talking about about the Gulag Archipelago or others, like Cancer Ward. The west stood up for him. It is very important that we stand up, not only that we stand up against Vladimir Putin's military machine, but that we stand up for dissidents and that we do so through the sanctions that we apply and that keep coming. I would like to underscore that fact. We have imposed sanctions on oligarchs, on members of the Putin regime, but they have been successive. They have not stopped after one round of sanctions. The foreign affairs minister has announced multiple rounds of sanctions, and I suspect there are many more rounds to come. We have done the same against the brutal authoritarian dictatorship in Iran. We need to stand up for the dissidents, and one way of doing so is through sanctions. I would like to say how fortunate our government is, not just the government but Parliament is, our country is, to have as an adviser someone whom I and the member for Winnipeg North sat with in this House, the Hon. Irwin Cotler. He devoted his life to standing up for persecuted dissidents, specifically but not exclusively by any means, in the Soviet Union. To know that there is wisdom being communicated from the Hon. Irwin Cotler to this Parliament and to this government personally reassures me as a parliamentarian and also as a Canadian. We are very fortunate to have someone like Irwin Cotler providing his perspective and his advice on how we can support dissidents and how we can stand up to Vladimir Putin. As a matter of fact, if I recall, so courageous was Irwin Cotler that he went to Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union, and I believe he was poisoned while he was there. I do not know if that was the official news or headline, but I remember him saying that something was happening, that he was not feeling well and that it was not just the garden variety of food poisoning. I do not know more about that situation, but I seem to recall hearing or reading about it. We are very fortunate to have the Hon. Irwin Cotler who, of course, has been an advocate for the Magnitsky Law and so on. However, I think Canada is doing its part by supporting Ukraine militarily, but it is also doing its part by targeting those who would be part of the machines, mechanisms or apparatus of repression that are targeting, no doubt, dissidents in both Russia and Iran. With that, I will now take questions as best I can on a very difficult topic.

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Ms. Elizabeth May (Saanich—Gulf Islands, GP)

Oct/18/22 12:05:48 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, it is an honour to rise to address a question to my colleague and friend and chair of the environment committee. We did have in mind discussing the Canadian Environmental Protection Act amendments today, but I am drawn to his very thoughtful speech, as he is a very thoughtful member, and the question of how we defeat authoritarianism. I think that democracy is at risk. Democracies around the world are at risk. We are at risk internally from disinformation that divides us so that we do not agree on our own set of facts, on what has happened and what is to be discussed. We too quickly go into different corners, often partisan corners, to take shots at each other. Democracy everywhere, including in this country, is at risk when we do not listen to each other respectfully and when we cannot agree on a set of facts. In a larger context, how do we preserve democracy globally? How do we take steps in Canada to repair the rifts of the last couple of years?

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Mr. Francis Scarpaleggia

Oct/18/22 12:06:54 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, the hon. member's question is a very good one. I do not think that there is a coordinated solution globally. Each freedom-loving country, each democratic country, has to take this problem, this dissemination of misinformation, very seriously. Things have changed. It used to be that we could have erroneous opinions and we could write them and send them in to the letters to the editor of a publication, but one's opinions were not being torqued through the use of algorithms and so on. We need to look at that as a national government. I think all national governments should be looking at that and trying to minimize the spread of patently false information. Again, on a national scale and on a more local scale, digital literacy has to be a priority in our schools.

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Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, CPC)

Oct/18/22 12:07:58 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I thank the member for his speech, which I think underlined the importance of the debate we are having. One important point that the member alluded to is maybe the folly of presuming some kind of “end of history” and that in the 21st century we are dealing with the same kinds of problems that reflect the human condition that we have been dealing with for a long time previously. In the immediate aftermath of the Cold War, there was maybe some of this, in retrospect, folly of “end of history” presumption in that we were going to have this peace dividend when we actually should have been preparing for the reality of new threats always emerging. The member spoke about sanctions. I think it is fair to say that the government could continuously make announcements of sanctions, adding more and more people to the sanctions list. There is probably an extremely large number of people we could sanction. The key point is this: Are we having the right sanctions consistently applied and effectively enforced? In that vein, as the member knows, we are very disappointed on this side of the House to see the exception granted with respect to energy sanctions for Gazprom. I wonder if the member has a comment on the exception granted for the export of Gazprom turbines and how that was widely criticized by Ukraine as being a negative in terms of their efforts.

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Mr. Francis Scarpaleggia

Oct/18/22 12:09:19 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, with Gazprom and the turbines, it has been said in the House that we did not want to give Vladimir Putin an excuse. That is as a pretext to say that we were making the situation worse. On another point, yes, we have to take difficult decisions, but there are going to be cases where we have to make some judgments. Does creating a complete energy crisis in Germany advance the goal of peace? I am not so sure it does. These are decisions, obviously, that the government has to make. They have to be debated around the cabinet table. I have no doubt whatsoever about the proper intent of the government, but it had to make a difficult decision and it looks like it made the right one.

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Mr. Ken Hardie (Fleetwood—Port Kells, Lib.)

Oct/18/22 12:10:27 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, there was very telling essay written not long ago, which stated in part, “liberal democracy has now exceeded many people’s capacity to tolerate it.” Let us think about that. Democracy is hard work and we live in an era when people are tired of hard work. They are tired of moving forward. One of the things that is making them tired is the growing distrust of government and institutions. I would like the hon. member to reflect on that and to look at the dynamics in the House between the opposition, the government and the other parties. Are we driving people to distrust government by the way we behave here, and are there some things that we should be doing better to preserve democracy here at home and be an example for the rest of the world?

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Mr. Francis Scarpaleggia

Oct/18/22 12:11:23 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, that is a deep question and it is not unusual for my colleague to really plumb the depths of an issue. Democracy is hard work. Sometimes people come to see me out of frustration. There are many good causes of frustration today, and there always have been really throughout history, but people ask me why the government cannot just does this or that and why it takes so long. I have to explain that, yes, I guess a corporation can make a quick decision and if it is the wrong decision, it will pay in terms of lost sales and lost profits, so on and so forth, but governments are not corporations. Governments need to build consensus, and that is done through debate. Debate is long and sometimes arduous. We have to listen to points of view that we do not necessarily agree with and many people need to be consulted, many stakeholders. The objective is to come through with a consensus that people can buy into so that we can move forward, but it is hard work and we see it here in this House and in committees every day.

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Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP)

Oct/18/22 12:12:36 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, the member's speech was very interesting and thoughtful. One of the things that was talked about yesterday when I met with some folks from Russia working on the Magnitsky sanctions is the idea of how our sanctions are imposed. Right now, we will often use the SEMA sanctions, not the Magnitsky sanctions. I am curious as to why the government has made the decision to use that system of sanctions instead of the Magnitsky act that we have. We have not used that act since 2018. I am wondering if the member has any insight into why that is the case.

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Mr. Francis Scarpaleggia

Oct/18/22 12:13:18 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, that is a good question. I am not intimately familiar with the Magnitsky act and the difference between that approach and the approach the government is taking. My sense, being on the government side, is that the government is looking for the most effective way of going about sanctioning individuals who deserve these sanctions. My sense also with the government is that it is always open to improving its approach, and it has shown this in the last few years. When something is not working as well as it could, it will try a different approach. I am sorry that I cannot address the finer point of the member's question.

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Mr. Garnett Genuis

Oct/18/22 12:14:14 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I should ask the member, given the presence of my colleague from Northumberland—Peterborough South, about Bill C-281, which is a private member's bill that my colleague put forward to strengthen the Magnitsky act by creating a mechanism by which a parliamentary committee can effectively nominate someone to be sanctioned under the act and require the government to respond. The existence of a parliamentary trigger, which exists in other countries, in a way forces the government to be more engaged in responding to what parliamentarians are proposing with respect to sanctions. Does the member think the excellent proposals from my colleague in Bill C-281, which would create a greater role for parliamentarians in putting forward individuals for sanctioning, would strengthen our democracy and our sanctions regime?

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Mr. Francis Scarpaleggia

Oct/18/22 12:15:07 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, it is an interesting idea, and I look forward to following the debate. I am sure the government is quite open-minded to all kinds of proposals that will provide proper sanction to those who deserve it.

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Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, CPC)

Oct/18/22 12:15:27 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley. I believe this concurrence motion is very timely. It is important. An hon. member: It is not. Mr. Marc Dalton: Madam Speaker, I am very disappointed to hear one of the members on the Liberal side saying that it is not important. Maybe I misheard, but it seemed like it. It is very unfortunate because, even though the war in Ukraine is maybe out of the front pages right now, it is impacting the world and millions of people. There are tens of thousands who have lost their lives. Millions have fled as refugees, with many of them coming to Canada. It is a terrible thing that is happening, and we need to be bringing this forward and continuing to take actions. Words are cheap. It is the actions that matter. That is the concern I have, that we on this side have, with the Liberal government. There are plenty of words, which I will talk about. There are plenty of words to say that they care and they have sympathy, but oftentimes the action is either lacking, minimal or could have been a lot better. This motion is important to bring forward, and I am hoping it will get unanimous approval. I was recently in eastern Europe. I met with NGOs, Ukrainian refugees and government officials. I was in Poland, and I talked with these individuals. We had heard about this in the papers, but I was surprised that there have been millions who have gone through that nation, and tens of thousands who have gone on to Canada, but there are no refugee camps. People have actually opened up their homes and allowed them to come into their homes. They were there, and they have given militarily in a very significant way. I know Canada has contributed in various ways militarily, in training, and a few guns and some other equipment. That is very disturbing, because words alone do not stop a dictator like Putin. Canada needs to be much more at the plate than it has been and is right now. It is very unfortunate. We have allowed our military to deteriorate. I was in a meeting with a number of other MPs. It was a bipartisan meeting, and the French ambassador made some comments about Canada's military. He made them public the following day. He said that the world needs more of Canada, and he was talking specifically of our military. We need to be stronger and not allow the rusting away of our arms so we can support, in a very practical way, the self-defence of Ukraine. The motion says: That the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration report the following to the House: We (a) condemn the continuing attack on Ukraine ordered by Russian President Vladimir Putin— Yes, we do condemn it, and this House has unanimously condemned it, but again it is about coming up to the plate and stepping up. I was born on a Canadian military base, Baden-Soellingen in Germany, during the Cold War. When I was about two years old or three years old, the Iron Curtain went up. My dad talked to me about it years later. He said that it was a very concerning time for him when I was born, wondering what this world was coming to with those threats. In 1989, 1990 and 1991, thanks to the brave actions of the Polish people, and the other eastern Europeans who stoop up as well, the wall fell, figuratively. That was amazing. Then, as was mentioned by my colleague from Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, there was the peace dividend, and the idea that we could just let our military go to pot. That is unfortunately what has happened. We have great soldiers in our military. I have only the highest compliments for our service personnel, but our service personnel have spoken to me. One fellow I was talking to was at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier during the Remembrance Day memorial here in Ottawa. He said that, even though he was in the infantry, they only practised one time a year because they did not have ammunition to practise. That is disgraceful. We need to stand up for and strengthen our military, so we can help other countries and not just rely on the United States. We need to be strong in this way. That is something very practical. In my visit to Europe, and I know others MPs have visited, my wife and I had the opportunity to go to Auschwitz. That was a grieving visit. It is not something one goes to snap a few pictures. It is a place of real reflection on and contemplation of the depravity of where humans can go. There is a place where the crematorium and the gas chambers were located. The German SS troops blew it up before the Allied forces took it over, but the remains are still there, and I reflected. I thought of the hundreds of thousands of people who had died in that space, which is maybe half the size, at the most, of this chamber, as far as the gas chamber and the crematorium go. Probably more people have died there than anywhere else in the world in history, and it is just a reflection of where totalitarianism and dictatorships can go. Canada is “The True North strong and free”. We need to continue to stand up for all those who seek freedoms. The second part of this motion says, “recognize that a growing proportion of the Russian people are bravely resisting and opposing this attack”. I feel for many of the Canadians of Russian heritage in Canada. It is not their decision, what happened, and when I have gone door to door in my community I have met people from eastern Europe, of Russian ancestry or who have immigrated over the past 10, 20 or 30 years. They are most appreciative of the freedoms we experience in Canada, and there are many Russians who are trying to flee that nation, hundreds of thousands of them, because of the Putin's decisions for the military to take men of all ages and press them into service as cannon fodder. They are fleeing, and Canada needs to do all it can to step up to help people trying to flee from Russia.

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Ms. Julie Dabrusin (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources and to the Minister of Environment and Climate Change, Lib.)

Oct/18/22 12:25:18 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I appreciated hearing comments from the member opposite about the importance of standing up against totalitarian regimes. As a Jewish Canadian, I found hearing about his experience of touring a concentration camp to be very important. Does he not, from that experience, think it is so important for our leaders here in Canada to stand up clearly to extremism right here in our country, to speak out against racist movements and anti-Semitic movements in our country, and to be vocal at every moment to call it out?

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