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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès)

Mar/22/22 3:44:33 p.m.
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I apologize. Could the hon. members who would like to have conversations go out into the lobby, please? We would like to listen to the member's speech. The hon. member for Thornhill.

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Ms. Melissa Lantsman

Mar/22/22 3:44:50 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, we have an opportunity to actually do something. It is something that goes beyond the blind ideology of demonizing the oil and gas industry. We know how we got here. This is a direct result of printing money we do not have for things that we do not need. The government's unprecedented spending is out of control. Do not take my word for it: Scotiabank agrees that high levels of spending are seen as contributing to the “strain on affordability pressures” for Canadians. These are Scotiabank's words, not mine. To make matters worse, the government has not stopped spending or even slowed it. I can already hear members of the government saying, “But the debt-to-GDP ratio”. To that, I say let me invite them out for an afternoon in my riding, and they can explain to Mrs. Cooper that the increased cost of buying healthy food for a family of five is fine because our debt-to-GDP ratio is among the best in the G7. Members of the government will say, “Oh, but the AAA credit score”. Let me invite them that same afternoon to explain to Mr. and Mrs. Green, who live on a fixed income and drive to see their grandkids, that they will need an extra 50 bucks a week for gas. When it comes to filling up these tanks, whether it is for Mr. and Mrs. Green to see their grandkids or those who need to get to work, take their kids to activities or just get around, the price is outrageous. We have witnessed over the last six years that the government's green energy policies contribute to seeing Canada's oil and gas sector destroyed. We do not have the infrastructure. We cannot get pipelines built, and despite the fact that we know that getting resources to tidewater is vital to our economy, to our environmental goals and to our own security, no less, the crusade against our own interests continues, blindly supported by pipe dreams instead of pipelines. While international conflicts in Ukraine have continued to contribute to those increases, they do not singularly explain the rise in the price of gasoline. They are not even close. It is not the invasion of Ukraine that will add 11¢ on April 1. It is not the invasion of Ukraine that neglected to build pipelines. It is not the invasion of Ukraine that has led to the lack of infrastructure, investment and development in our sector. It is, however, the direct result of the newly minted NDP-Liberal government, whose policies have put Canada in a position where Canadians are Instagram-posting outrage pictures of the price to fill up their tanks. Our policies have consequences, and those consequences are hitting Canadian families directly. The good news is we could do something significant today. We could provide immediate relief to families by providing a GST holiday on gasoline and diesel. We could immediately provide relief at the pumps to all Canadians and reduce prices by about 5%. That is 8¢ per litre. That is real savings. We could be fighting for families across Canada who have been pushed to the brink by the cost of living crisis. We could be fighting to leave money where it belongs: in the pockets of hard-working Canadians. We could do that if members of the House support this measure and support the motion. Record high gas prices do not appear to be going away any time soon. In March 2021, gas was $1.24 a litre in my riding. Today it is $1.75. That is just a year later. I live in a community where, as in so many others, it is nearly impossible to get around without a car. It is impossible to get to work on a bicycle, impossible to take the kids to hockey practice on a skateboard, and impossible to get groceries on roller skates. The government's solution of reducing carbon emissions cannot be one that ignores the realities of life for so many Canadians. More Canadians are struggling to make ends meet. Young people are giving up on home ownership, and nearly half of Canadians are worried about their financial security this year. A high-tax, high-debt agenda set the stage for inflation. It set the stage for punishing prices at the pumps, and today we have the opportunity to finally give Canadians the relief they need. We are calling on the government to pause the GST on fuel and give Canadians a break. I will ask members of the House to do the right thing by their constituents and support the motion in the House. We simply cannot afford not to.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.)

Mar/22/22 3:49:30 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, earlier in the member's comments, she talked about the price of a litre of gasoline and somewhat implied that because we have things here in Canada, it should be a lot less expensive. One of the ways in which some countries have been able to accomplish that is through the nationalization of a commodity. Right away, I started thinking that it did not sound like a Conservative Party approach to dealing with issues: to nationalize and purchase Esso and so forth. I am wondering this. Are we starting to see a shift in some of the mentality coming from the Conservative Party in dealing with price controls, by saying that the Conservatives are interested in nationalizing in order to keep down prices?

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Ms. Melissa Lantsman

Mar/22/22 3:50:24 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, it has been just a few hours and the member opposite is already starting to sound like he is part of the NDP. We print money here instead of actually making things that money buys. Our rate of inflation is at a record high. Canadians cannot afford gas, groceries or their everyday necessities, and instead of doing the right thing and taking the GST off of gas, which is an actual measure that could reduce the price at the pumps and which the member could do immediately, he just is not.

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Mr. Xavier Barsalou-Duval (Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, BQ)

Mar/22/22 3:51:12 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I have to wonder whether my colleague's response to rising gas prices is a bit simplistic. When we look at the price of a barrel of oil or the price of gas, we see that gas is now at almost $2 a litre. We know that the tax on gas, the GST, is 5%. At $2 a litre, that would represent around 10¢ in savings. I would like to know whether my colleague thinks that 10¢ will change the reality of the market in any meaningful way. Should we not be looking at a more long-term solution? Instead of living at the mercy of the ups and downs of oil prices, why do we not focus on the electrification of transportation? This would be a real, long-term solution that would make us less dependent on products whose prices can increase drastically based on whatever is going on in Ukraine, Afghanistan, or Iraq, or based on Christmas, holidays or summer vacation. Gas prices are always bouncing up and down and, unfortunately, consumers are the ones who suffer.

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Ms. Melissa Lantsman

Mar/22/22 3:52:26 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, we have an opportunity to do something immediate for Canadians to get some relief in a cost of living crisis, and I know the member who asked the question hears that in his constituency. I know that he gets the same kinds of emails and calls that I get, because this is a problem across the country. Instead of doing the right thing today, he is suggesting that we put that aside and focus on bigger issues. He has the opportunity to lower costs for Canadians today. He is not taking that opportunity, and he is going to have to explain that to his constituents.

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Mr. Don Davies (Vancouver Kingsway, NDP)

Mar/22/22 3:53:16 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I very much agree with my hon. colleague that Canadians are experiencing a dramatic hardship due to the high cost of living, whether it is for food, housing, services or, as this motion speaks to, gas at the pumps. As the member said, we are facing record-high gas prices. The problem I see with this motion is that it would do nothing about the excessive profits being made by oil and gas companies. We know that companies such as Suncor just made net profits of $4.1 billion. Someone is profiting enormously from prices of gas at $2 per gallon. Instead of doing this, would the member agree that we should impose a tax of 3% on profits over $1 billion, as the NDP has suggested, and redirect that revenue to everyday Canadians?

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Ms. Melissa Lantsman

Mar/22/22 3:54:08 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I appreciate the question from the member, who actually still sounds as if he comes from the NDP. We have an opportunity right now to do something for Canadians. We have an opportunity to lower the costs. I think the conversation about record profits in oil companies is a frivolous one in the context of this debate. The member used to be part of a party that fought for the affordability of Canadians. Where is that member now?

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Mr. Earl Dreeshen (Red Deer—Mountain View, CPC)

Mar/22/22 3:54:50 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, certainly with gas prices at an all-time high across Canada, Canadians are in desperate need of a break. They are facing severe hardships due to the dramatic escalation of gas prices while the federal government enjoys increased revenue collected off the 5% GST, as well as the HST and QST. Today, I join my colleagues in demanding that the House call on the government to immediately provide relief at the pumps to all Canadians. By introducing a temporary 5% reduction on gasoline and diesel we would, at present, reduce the average price by approximately eight cents per litre. Canadians' finances are buckling under the strain of record-breaking gas prices that have no clear end in sight. There is a looming thought that by increasing the cost of energy, the Liberal agenda to push Canadians to invest in more environmentally friendly methods of transportation will materialize. This short-sighted narrative, which tries to reduce global emissions standards by punishing consumers, is without merit. As has been proven time and time again, provinces can and will address greenhouse gas emissions while respecting the environment and their citizens. Also, there is a continued misunderstanding that increased oil prices can be dealt with by people taking public transportation, driving less or buying electric vehicles. These are serious misconceptions as they continue to ignore the plight of Canadians who do not have the luxury of transportation infrastructure in their communities or cannot afford the expense associated with the questionable purchase of an electric vehicle. At this point in time, we are hardly in a place where we should be experimenting with people's lives, which is exactly what ignoring rising fuel costs would be doing. Skyrocketing inflation and the cost of living crisis are devastating families across Canada, and casually suggesting that they turn to public transportation or electric vehicles is reckless. If we factor in the suspect full-life cost cycles of EVs, this is even worse. There are so many Canadians who rely on their vehicles to get to work and drive their kids to school and to sports. There are small businesses and non-profits that depend on their vehicles to keep serving their communities. Giving Canadians a GST break on fuel is a simple, common-sense solution to help those Canadians who are suffering the most from inflation. Higher fuel prices raise the cost of everything from gasoline to home heating, groceries, education and health care. A staggering 53% of Canadians say that they cannot keep up with the rising prices. It is getting harder and harder to make sense of the environmentalist movement's agenda. Constituents in my riding, and indeed Canadians across the country, are begging for relief. There is a stark reality that human civilization depends on its access to reliable and affordable energy. Because fossil fuels are uniquely accessible, energy-dense and transportable, they fit the world's present needs precisely. Let me be clear: There is no nation in the world that produces oil and gas as ethically as Canada does. What a proud legacy we are offering the world. The tax holiday that we are suggesting today would reduce the cost of everything. It is efficient, immediate and the most effective path to benefit people who rely on vehicles, and to benefit people who are faced with choosing between heat, food and transportation. It is a common-sense solution to help alleviate a manufactured Liberal problem. This tax relief in response to soaring costs at the pump will provide Canadians with a small bit of relief that they are so desperately in need of as the cost of everything is going up. As a representative of a large agricultural riding, I want to take a moment to address food security. Our rural communities are also agricultural powerhouses that rely on heavy machinery for food production, and that machinery needs fuel. Few farmers in my riding have the ability to pass these costs directly to the consumer. They come off their bottom line. There are those industries that can pass on energy costs to the consumer, and the result is a dramatic increase in costs throughout Canadian homes. This scenario means that everyone continues to pay for bad policy. These added costs will also affect the availability of the products on our store shelves. In agricultural circles, the increased cost of production will be close to 70% for some inputs this year, and fuel is a major factor in this ongoing cash crisis. Make no mistake: farmers are not the ones profiting from increased food prices. When it comes to passing on the costs, transportation expenses add to the consumer's plight. I feel that so many of these people pushing the anti-oil and gas narrative have no real idea what it is like to live north of the 49th parallel. They have no real understanding of how severely impacted northern communities are at the hands of these rising fuel costs. If we look at many northern communities, such as Barren Lands First Nation in Brochet, Manitoba, we see families running out of gas and struggling with food prices. It is serious. The Liberals' answer to high gas prices is to tell people that they should buy electric cars. Let us be honest here: if one cannot afford $150 worth of fuel, how can one afford a $50,000 EV? The world's future may involve a shift to more renewable energy, but such a future is not imminent. Those that insist otherwise are simply ignoring the historical and scientific evidence. Growing worldwide demand for fossil fuel ensures our legacy energy sources will remain steadfast even as other sources become prominent. Canadians are ready to see this country's energy and natural resource sector play a stronger leadership role in edging out less regulated and less principled supplier nations in the global supply pool. I want to take a moment to address the elephant in the room: the fact that the Liberals voted against our motion calling on Canada to export more natural gas to displace Russian natural gas in Europe. Getting Canadian natural gas to tidewater is vital to Canada's security and it is vital to our economy, and in the face of Putin's illegal war in Ukraine, it is vital to Europe's defence and security. Getting more low-carbon natural gas to market, especially with the cutting-edge technology that Canadian industry is using, is also consistent with our environmental goals as we transition to various energy sources. It is time for the government to have an honest conversation with Canadians about pipelines. Canada's European allies that are procuring natural gas from Russia are funding Putin's war chest. Canada has an amazing supply of natural gas, but we are lagging behind in the game because those calling the shots have no sense for geopolitics and no vision of what the path forward to more sustainable energy looks like. European leaders have already raised the prospect of replacing Russian-supplied natural gas with Canadian natural gas, yet the government refuses to do its part and, sadly, builds roadblocks. Those who vehemently oppose pipeline construction and building our capacity to enable liquefied natural gas exports from Canada's east coast to Europe are aiding, abetting and condoning Putin's behaviour. How ironic is it that woke pipeline policy has the U.S.A. considering sourcing Venezuelan heavy oil for its gulf refineries? Meanwhile, our Canadian oil is being stopped by movie stars and anti-Canadian oil activists. Who are these people really working for? Canadians can expect to pay even more at the pumps as Russia's attack on Ukraine puts even greater pressure on the already surging oil price environment. The trend of increasing gas prices reveals the truth behind who is actually looking out for Canadians. Conservatives will always be the voice of Canadians looking for relief from the rising cost of living. Supporting this tax holiday would help reduce the cost of everything. Transportation and production costs would decrease, giving some relief to consumers for necessities like food. At a time when the rights of Canadians seem to be continually trampled on by the Liberal government, this tax relief would show that we, as political leaders, care about Canadians, not some ideological fantasy. Canadians deserve to eat. Canadians need their vehicles to go to work. Canadians need to heat their homes. Canadians deserve better. I hope all members will support the initiative presented today. It is time to follow the lead of the Conservative Party and be the voice of Canadians looking for relief from the accelerating cost of living. It is time for the NDP-Liberal government to join us in supporting all Canadians, not just the ones rich enough to prop up their green agenda at the cost of others' well-being.

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Mr. Chris Bittle (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Canadian Heritage, Lib.)

Mar/22/22 4:04:48 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, in the hon. member's speech he talked about ideological positions, but the complete ignorance of global climate change and how that will affect Canadians who will not be able to get insurance when crops will not be able to grow was interesting. It is honestly disgusting to hear members of the Conservative Party suggest that other members in this House do not stand and support Ukraine. It is unfortunate that we have come to the point where this type of rhetoric happens. The member left out the part about the European Union and European allies wanting to transition to a green economy to eliminate their reliance on Russian oil. Why did he leave that out of his speech? Does it not really go with his ideological narrative?

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Mr. Earl Dreeshen

Mar/22/22 4:05:57 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, having been a member of OSCE and having spent time in Tbilisi and Berlin talking to people from the European Union about this issue, I know they are not as ideological as the member is indicating. They understand the necessities. They know what is happening with the Nord Stream 1 and Nord Stream 2 pipelines and they recognize the significance of the damage that is being done. Believe me, when Putin invaded Crimea, it was not for windmills and solar panels. He went there for its oil and gas reserves. That is exactly what is happening there. They know that it has to be replaced, so it is not as ideological as what we see across the aisle.

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Ms. Monique Pauzé (Repentigny, BQ)

Mar/22/22 4:06:49 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I salute my colleague who sits with me on the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development. Sometimes we are on the same wavelength, and sometimes we are not at all. Today is an example of the latter. Oil companies benefit when the price of crude oil goes up. Oil companies benefit at every stage of the refining process. Oil companies pocket the price increase at the pump. Ultimately, oil companies are the ones who benefit from inflation. Some oil companies have Russian oligarchs at the helm. I have a hard time understanding why my colleague has not taken that into consideration.

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Mr. Earl Dreeshen

Mar/22/22 4:07:29 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I always appreciate having an opportunity to discuss issues with the member from the Bloc on the environment committee. What we are talking about today is significant. We talk about provincial issues and how provinces can help their communities. One of the aspects that I know Quebec talks about is this one, the question of how it can help to reduce greenhouse gas, and not just in Quebec, where it has done a good job. It has a source of energy that is beneficial to the country. However, there is another aspect, which is that Alberta and western Canada also have an energy source that is not only beneficial to the country but to the world. I guess there is a bit of a difference, but I respect their energy sources and I ask that they respect ours.

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Mr. Blake Desjarlais (Edmonton Griesbach, NDP)

Mar/22/22 4:08:38 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, the residents of my community in Edmonton Griesbach are also suffering from this affordability crisis. It is hurting them not just in everyday rent, gas and groceries; they are also scared for their kids. What I want to hear the member talk about is how this country's economy is truly going to help these folks in a real way. This proposal in many ways is temporary, but we know that this crisis may be long-lasting. These companies are profiting. Suncor, for example, profited by $4.1 billion, paying out $3.9 billion to its shareholders. CN Rail had $7.7 billion in profit. Would the member agree that we need to tax profiteers who have made unjust amounts of money and reinvest the money in the people who need it most as a real plan for affordability?

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Mr. Earl Dreeshen

Mar/22/22 4:09:26 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I have spent a lot of time in Edmonton and took public transit there when it was necessary. A lot of times it was to go to watch my Eskimos play football, but that is a different story. To be serious about the question, it is important that we understand some of the reasons that the prices are so high right now. We have a country that is rich in resources and the Canadian dollar is at 79¢ right now. These are the kinds of reasons that the prices at the pump are so severe. We have to look at the overall economic impact of what is taking place.

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Mr. Kody Blois (Kings—Hants, Lib.)

Mar/22/22 4:10:24 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I would first like to say that I will be sharing my time with my hon. colleague from Kingston and the Islands. Today, we are here to discuss the opposition motion moved by my hon. colleague from Abbotsford, which addresses the price of oil and gas. The wording of the motion is non‑binding on the government, but I am glad we are having this conversation about affordability for Canadians and our constituents. The discussion is important at this time. First, the current price of gas and the problems it is causing across the country are linked to the situation and the war in Ukraine. The price of gas and oil is based on an international market. It is not unique to Canada; it is linked in different ways to producers around the world. When I have conversations with my constituents in Kings—Hants, I am reminded of that. Part of the challenge that we are all going to have to face is the fact that although we are not directly involved militarily on the ground in Ukraine, the western world is responding by sanctioning the products that are coming from the Russian Federation as part of our plan to help deter future Russia aggression and obviously to respond to the situation right now. I have said in other speeches that the sanctions alone are not going to change the situation overnight in Ukraine. We are there on other fronts with military hardware and with logistics, both lethal and non-lethal, along with our NATO allies, to try to provide support to those who are courageously fighting for democracy, not only in Ukraine but around the world. I think Canadians need to understand that on a temporary basis, in the interim, we are going to be facing higher gas prices as part of the collective cost to fight the war in Ukraine, indirectly at this point, and I think we are all concerned about what this could represent in the days ahead with the changing sands in our foreign policy context. I also want to take a moment to explain carbon pricing, because my Conservative colleagues in particular are highlighting their idea that the carbon price is unilaterally driving up gas prices and that it is the government's fault that things at the pump can sometimes be challenging. I want to debunk that, at least as it relates to my province of Nova Scotia, and then also speak about what this represents in backstop provinces that do not have an equivalent environmental plan to tackle emissions. In Nova Scotia, particularly because of the work under the McNeil Liberal government, there has been tremendous effort undertaken to make our electricity grid and our power generation renewable. That has resulted in a higher cost to individuals, but there is no direct price on pollution levied at the pumps on gasoline. I have had calls over the last couple of weeks about the price of gas and what the Government of Canada can do vis-à-vis the price on pollution. As it relates to Nova Scotia, a lot of that has already been implemented through our electricity rates. Monies that the government is collecting under its cap and trade system at the provincial level are being distributed toward important initiatives to help transition households, particularly vulnerable households, to a lower-carbon future. Of course, in backstop provinces such as Ontario, essentially the way I like to describe it is that monies collected by the government on the carbon price are centralized and then distributed back to individuals on a per capita basis, which actually creates an incentive for individuals to change their behaviour. As a rural member in this House, I take notice that sometimes there are challenges if people do not have other options, and I think that this is a legitimate policy conversation that can be had, especially as the price on pollution advances in the days ahead. I want to take a moment to discuss some of the initiatives our government has taken since 2015. First, we introduced a $10‑a‑day child care spaces program, like the model in Quebec, to reduce the cost to families. I think this is very important because it helps parents get back to work and reduces costs for middle‑class and low‑income families. It is a great step by this government to advance the interests of families who need help. I also want to talk about the Canada housing benefit. This is a program that is a portable benefit that has been delivered to individuals who are in need. We talk about affordable housing. That means different things to different people, but at the end of the day we are trying to put a program in place that allows an individual to move to different locations as their circumstances warrant, with support from the Government of Canada on the basis of their income. The traditional program has been that someone will be set up in a particular location and given their affordable rent. This program has a lot more merit and we need to continue to remind Canadians of the benefits it represents. The Canada child benefit, again, has brought countless hundreds of thousands of Canadian children out of poverty and supported families. I do not need to go into great detail because one could look at Hansard and the testimony of members of Parliament about what this has meant for their loved ones and their families. It is truly making a difference and supports affordability, which is really what the text of this motion is about. I am the member for Kings—Hants, in Nova Scotia. My riding is mostly rural and is made up of small communities of people who are, on average, older. The guaranteed income supplement is very important for seniors and vulnerable people, which is why our government introduced measures to strengthen this program in the last Parliament. Right now, we have commitments of course to extending that by $500 a month and we have strengthened old age security, which are other important measures relating to affordability. I want to talk about the importance of intercity busing. I mentioned I am an MP in a rural area. The way the Government of Canada's programs are designed is that we have a lot of support that is accessible to the provinces to work with municipalities on transit in larger cities. However, if someone is vulnerable right now, does not have access to a vehicle and does not have the ability to afford the cost of a vehicle to get them from place to place, intercity busing is key. The government has had other initiatives in the past. One point that is extremely important is looking at the investing in Canada infrastructure program and the bilaterals we have with the provinces and territories, and finding ways for flexibility to support intercity busing, particularly given the fact we have gone through COVID and there have been challenges. The last thing I will say is that the text of this motion talks about eight cents on average that a temporary tax relief would give to the consumer. What I do not think has been discussed is whether we, as members of Parliament, should be also privy to that type of benefit. This comes down to an ideological choice of saying we can either just let an eight-cent reduction in gas prices on a temporary basis be available to everyone, including millionaires and people who really do not need that help, or we can continue to collect revenue as the government normally would and create a specific program that would be targeted to individuals who actually have challenges right now related to affordability. I dare say there is not one member of Parliament in the House, on a salary of $180,000 a year, who needs eight cents back per litre at the pump. It is lower income Canadians who do. That is a fundamental flaw with the text of this motion. I look forward to taking questions from my hon. colleagues.

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Mr. Jeremy Patzer (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, CPC)

Mar/22/22 4:20:31 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to ask a question. I want to thank the member for his speech. He does a very good job in the House. I also represent a very rural riding. I know he does as well, but his riding could actually fit inside of my riding 19 times. That is how big my riding is.

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Mr. Jeremy Patzer

Mar/22/22 4:21:32 p.m.
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It sure does, because people have to drive and people have to commute. The point I am trying to make is that the cost of fuel right now is exorbitant. It disproportionately impacts people who live in my riding who have to drive great distances to get to work and for their kids to play hockey, to play baseball or to go school. We have seen school closures over a number of years in a lot of these small towns, which have been systematically forgotten about by governments at all levels. Saskatchewan put forward a climate plan based on the model that New Brunswick has. I would like to hear the member's thoughts on why the government cancelled or denied Saskatchewan's request to use the same plan that New Brunswick has?

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Mr. Mark Gerretsen

Mar/22/22 4:21:32 p.m.
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It is not the size of your riding that counts.

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Mr. Kody Blois

Mar/22/22 4:21:34 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, at 19 times the size, I can appreciate the challenges of getting to every corner of his riding and what that would represent. Even 5,000 square kilometres in Kings—Hants can sometimes feel daunting. I do not have specific information to answer his question vis-à-vis the intergovernmental aspect of Saskatchewan versus New Brunswick. I will talk about affordability writ large. I think it is an important conversation to be had. We are seeing challenges, as I mentioned, because of the war in Ukraine, around food supplies and around fertilizer for farmers, which I know that member would know a lot about given the concentration he represents in his riding, so I do think we need to have conversations about affordability. My issue is that the text of this motion is about eight cents per litre. I take notice that for some people that is a very big deal. However, the text of the motion is not very targeted. I think there are better ways to go about having targeted measures for Canadians who actually need the support, as opposed to having that member benefit from eight cents a litre. I think he would suggest he does not necessarily need it at this point.

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