That is a very timely question. We’ll have our next meeting in Quebec next week, so we’ll all be talking about this. This will be on the agenda, along with other items.

Thank you.

Thank you very much, minister, for being with us here today.

We heard quite ringing denunciations of this bill from quite respectable witnesses in our meeting yesterday. They said that it’s being implemented in a rush, without data, and that the system is already increasingly revoking bail, moving up to an average of 70% across Canada in 2022 and as high as 79% in Ontario last year. They also said that increasing jail terms in remand will put more vulnerable people in tough situations and will encourage people to plead guilty, although statistically almost half of those charged wouldn’t be convicted.

As you’ve said in answer to Senator Batters, the system is already under great pressure, and this is a very targeted piece. My question is this: The bill calls for a review of these provisions in five years by the standing committee of the House of Commons that normally considers matters relating to justice. Would you agree with some witnesses’ suggestions that we should do more than just review these targeted — some would say Band-Aid — provisions and look at a more comprehensive review of the bail system, which is amongst the most complicated and convoluted provisions in the Criminal Code?

Welcome, minister.

I want to focus on the B.C. First Nations Justice Strategy in the context of Bill C-48. I’m impressed with the aims, the objectives and the overarching goal, namely, reducing the number of First Nations people who become involved with the criminal justice system. Further aims would be improving the experience of those who do, increasing the number of First Nations people working within the justice system and supporting First Nations to restore their justice systems and infrastructure. Does Bill C-48 complement these aims and objectives? What impact will Bill C-48 have on those aims and objectives? Will any adjustments to the strategy be required?

No adjustments to the strategy will be required. We see this as not in conflict, to be frank, because we are talking about repeat violent offenders. There’s a circle around that group that is causing harm to many people, including Indigenous women and girls, in the community. I would start by saying that.

Yes, that strategy is comprehensive. We are standing up resources in communities across the province. Five more centres will go up shortly this year. These Indigenous justice centres are direct resource centres for Indigenous people that are encountering the justice system, whether it’s Gladue report writing or legal advice from an Indigenous lawyer.

The goal of the centres is to work with the local First Nations. Each centre will have a different focus based on what’s needed in the community, but we can establish cultural supports for people. If it’s appropriate in the criminal justice system that it’s not detention, it could be some culturally appropriate pathway that the accused may go down.

Once we develop those systems and communities, that will evolve over time depending on the community and the nations involved. The supports will be those needed to lessen the over-incarceration of Indigenous people in the province. It’s important work, and it’s led by the BC First Nations Justice Council. I meet with them regularly as Attorney General, and we figure out what supports they need to do the work. It is about taking back that power.

Thank you for that. I wish you all the best with the strategy. I hope it goes well.

Thank you.

I have three senators for second round. We have ten minutes left, so I will give you three minutes each.

Minister, thank you for all the answers. I have learned a lot from you today.

I understand you also have a separate Indigenous court as well. Is that correct?

That’s right. We have a few in the province that are running. We’re thinking about that as part of the strategy as well. Communities are asking us about it. They would like to have their own Indigenous court. Yes, we are thinking about expanding it.

Thank you.

Regarding the issue of legal aid, when the Minister of Justice was here, I asked him a question about this legislation and if he would be increasing legal aid. He told me, “We expanded legal aid in 2022 by $60 million on top.” I won’t read everything else he said, but if I understood him, he said that the annual allotment from the Government of Canada is $202 million a year for criminal legal aid. Obviously, that’s for the whole nation. Are you expecting more legal aid once this legislation has been passed? If not, with the reverse onus, won’t this mean that other parts of services, like matrimonial and other appeals, will suffer?

Thanks for the questions, senator.

I am glad you asked the minister about legal aid funding. We have been asking as well. We are grateful for the increases that you mentioned previously, but we see the need for further investment in criminal legal aid, along with the investments that we need to do as a province to do our share of that. It is of concern. One of the worst things in our justice system is when somebody can’t afford to get representation and encounters something that affects their liberty or their life without that proper representation. We will continue to advocate for the levels of criminal legal aid that we think are necessary in the province. We did ask for an increase at the last budget round and are hopeful that we will get it at some point. It is part of the picture that we need. Part of the comprehensive plan is ensuring that the resources that are needed to respond to changes like this are in place.

Thank you, minister.

Thank you, minister, for all the insight and extra information you have provided.

In your capacity as Attorney General, I think you can issue general guidelines to Crown prosecutors. Would you consider issuing a guideline that will remind prosecutors to consider specific factors, such as over-representation of some groups, when they consider their assessment of files and to ensure that they also present to the judge their representations about these factors?

That’s an important question. We have issued a directive — it was the AG in B.C. before me — to Crown counsel when it came to offences such as this. Included in that was a clear directive that you must ensure, as you are doing this work, that this doesn’t impact the work that we are doing on the Indigenous Justice Strategy and lead to further harm and over-incarceration of Indigenous people. It’s part of the work that we have done in B.C., and it’s always that balance that we have to ensure that we strike. We are always thinking about further work that might need to be done on this file. I will take that and think about whether we need to do anything else in that regard.

Thank you very much, because some witnesses have represented that judges are not considering these factors. If they are told about them, they will most likely consider the factors. Thank you.

I want to return to Senator Jaffer’s questions about legal aid. I recall that, in 2019, B.C.’s legal aid lawyers organized a strike because of their pay conditions. They argued that funding for legal aid in B.C. was tenth out of 12 per capita in the country. Since this is a shared responsibility, can you tell me a bit more about what your department is asking for from your treasury to support legal aid?

Great questions.

Yes, you are correct about the history there. Since then, the legal aid lawyers have an association now that represents them, so we are able to sit down and negotiate payment increases for their work. We have recently upped that. We are doing that work continuously. However, because they have an association now, they speak regularly and meet with me as government and talk specifically about the needs or the challenges that they have. We are always looking at ways to improve that.

Presently, in particular when it comes to legal aid, we are thinking about family law in B.C. and how we can support increases in that. It’s a little bit off-topic here but something that we are all continually in discussion and talking about.

There is a very new-fledgling lawyer doing family law, legal aid work some of the time, in Vancouver. If I could say that without conflict of interest, that would be good. But what I am really wondering is, what kind of increase are you hoping for from your own government?

We have put increases into our legal aid over time, and you are correct that years ago there were significant cuts to legal aid and supports in B.C. I think we have had reductions across the board. I think we are tackling that in different ways, so it is hard to give you a number. For example, we are opening a South Asian legal clinic opening soon. We are investing in different immigrant and refugee clinics. These are lawyers who we are paying or partially funding to do the work, along with other funders. Although it is not direct legal aid work, it is a resource.