Hon. Donna Dasko: Will Senator Miville-Dechêne accept a question?

[Translation]

Senator Dasko: Thank you for your comments. I appreciated them.

You expressed doubt about the value of a commission. Clearly, the two times they have run the election, debates have been problematic. Do you feel there should continue to be at least one major English-language and one major French-language debate televised and online? Because it’s not just television; there is online access too. Do you feel that’s an important thing for the future of elections or just not at all?

[Translation]

Hon. Donna Dasko: Honourable senators, I rise today to speak to the inquiry I gave notice of last November to call the attention of the Senate to the role of leaders’ debates in enhancing democracy by engaging and informing voters.

As citizens and parliamentarians, we must always be vigilant about our democratic institutions, especially in today’s world where democracy is threatened in so many places. But why talk about leaders’ debates? My inquiry was prompted by my profound dissatisfaction in watching the leaders’ debates in last year’s 2021 federal election and the outpouring of criticism that was directed toward those debates — criticism of just about everything about them, particularly the English-language debate.

Personally, I have always loved watching leaders’ debates, and I still remember some of the great debates of our history. “You had an option, sir,” said Brian Mulroney to his overwhelmed opponent John Turner in a memorable exchange in 1984. But debates are not just a form of entertainment. They play an essential role in our democracy. Leaders’ debates may be the single most important opportunity for voters to learn about the choices before them, the character and temperament of leaders, the party policies and the approaches to national issues.

Today, in Canada, leaders’ debates are also a matter of public policy. In 2018, an order-in-council created the Leaders’ Debates Commission to ensure that at least one leaders’ debate would be held in each official language during each federal election campaign. Prior to the order-in-council, consultations were undertaken by the government, and a House of Commons committee deliberated and investigated. At no point, however, did the Senate participate in this debate before the order‑in‑council came forward. It all happened without us. But, colleagues, it’s not too late. Given the very mixed results of the debates undertaken by the commission in both the 2019 and 2021 federal elections, in my view, it is time for sober second thought.

Now, some esteemed colleagues may think that the Senate should take no role in deliberations about elections. I profoundly disagree with this view. Free and fair elections are an integral part of all democracies, and we in this chamber have not only the right to participate and deliberate on these topics by virtue of our constitutional role, but we also have the responsibility to engage. And thus I hope that we can make a contribution to this inquiry.

American scholars have studied political leaders’ debates for many decades, and there is widespread agreement that these debates inform the electorate. Canadian researchers have reached similar conclusions about the importance of debates in this country. In testimony before the House of Commons Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs in 2017, Professor Vincent Raynauld of the Université du Québec à Trois-Rivières concluded that leaders’ debates in Canada have had an important impact on public attitudes, levels of mobilization, voting intentions and information, describing them as a one-stop shop. In a series of round table consultations held with experts in five cities in 2018, the IRPP reported as follows:

Participants unanimously agreed that leaders’ debates are an essential feature of any federal election and that their distinct qualities separate them from other campaign events.

Of particular importance is that, “Over time, leaders’ debates became the campaign experience that would be shared by the highest number of voters . . . .”

The first televised leaders’ debate in Canada was held in conjunction with the 1968 federal election. This historic debate was jointly broadcast on CBC/Radio-Canada and other media. Although the actual number of viewers is uncertain, reports prior to the debate estimated a significant audience of between 14 and 15 million people.

Following this first televised leaders’ debate, no such debates were held during either the 1972, 1974 or 1980 elections. From 1984 to 2011, the main debates were organized by a so-called broadcast consortium of major English- and French-language television networks including CBC, CTV, Global, Radio-Canada, Télé-Québec and TVA, who worked together to negotiate with the parties and to broadcast the debates.

The vast majority of debate production up to 2011 included two debates in each election, one English and one French. The debate situation changed significantly in the 2015 election, setting the stage for new developments. Only one debate, a French-language debate, was organized by the broadcast consortium in 2015. Conservative leader and Prime Minister Harper declined to participate in an English-language debate organized by the consortium. Instead, smaller debates were hosted by other media organizations.

The unprecedented situation prompted a vigorous debate, and the drop in viewers of the English debates from 2011 to 2015 was a particular concern. There were more debates in 2015, but they were watched by fewer citizens. And, thus, following the election in December 2015, Prime Minister Trudeau charged former minister of democratic institutions Karina Gould to “Bring forward options to create an independent commissioner to organize political party leaders’ debates during future federal election campaigns . . . .”

Consultations were undertaken. A House of Commons committee investigated and recommended the creation of a debates commission, which was created in October 2018 through order-in-council. For better or worse, federal election leaders’ debates came under the purview of government. Former governor general David Johnston was tapped to be the new leaders’ debates commissioner, and the commission set to work to fulfill its mandate. In each of the 2019 and 2021 federal elections, the commission opted to contract out the promotion, production and distribution of the debates through a competitive process. The selected group therefore carried out these processes without commission involvement in the themes or questions or in editorial decisions. The commission undoubtedly did not want to be involved in or be seen to be involved in a political process on behalf of any government. However, the results from the commission debates have turned out to be extremely problematic in the view of many experts.

At the risk of oversimplifying, the 2019 debates revealed important issues which were not resolved but, in fact, were exacerbated in 2021. These issues affected the English debates more so than the French-language debates, although the latter still received notable criticism.

Let me focus on 2021. Here is a sampling of reaction, taken from the Leaders’ Debates Commission’s 2021 report and social media, to the main English-language debate held on September 9: “ghastly,” “an insult to the intelligence,” “the worst debate I have ever seen,” “a train wreck,” “a dumpster fire,” “absolutely disgraceful,” “an epic fail,” “a nadir on the history of debating.”

And here are some headlines: “The farce of Canada’s televised federal leaders’ debate is an insult to viewers and voters.”

[Translation]

“Quebec nation ‘attacked’ in English-language leaders’ debate.”

[English]

“Canadians deserved better than just one lousy debate.”

The French-language debate on September 8 was also criticized:

[Translation]

“Debates nothing but a sad farce.”

[English]

There are many other examples.

Colleagues, responses like this raise serious questions about whether this country has taken a wrong turn and how we can proceed on a better path.

Let’s examine which elements of debate enhance our democracy, as is the subject of this inquiry. We can look at the goal or purpose of leaders’ debates and how the format and other aspects can work to achieve these goals.

There is an inherent conflict of interest among the three participants — political parties, the media and citizens — when it comes to the goals of leaders’ debates. The parties naturally view the debates as opportunities or threats depending on their electoral situation, and will try to structure the timing, topics and format to maximize partisan advantage.

The media has other goals. As journalists, they strive to hold politicians to account and present information with a critical perspective. But according to former journalists Elly Alboim and Paul Adams, media apply their own news values, such as novelty and conflict, which they learn in journalism schools. Debates are produced like TV shows, imposing news and production values to generate sparks.

Then there are the voters and citizens. Just about every expert in this area says that the needs of the voters should be the focus of debates given their importance for providing vital information to voters. But if debates belong to the citizens, who is representing them in this process? Well, it’s hard to say. According to former journalist Elly Alboim, the debates have gone from bad to worse as the interests of the journalists have taken over the process. He believes the fundamental error in 2019 and 2021 was to view the debates as a journalistic exercise, allowing a destructive format and abandoning responsibility to voters.

Essentially, the best format for debates to achieve democratic goals is one that maximizes an unmediated environment, where voters and viewers can have direct access to leaders and parties. According to journalism professor Chris Waddell, former director of the School of Journalism and Communication at Carleton University, moderators should stimulate discussion by posing open-ended questions, strive for invisibility and not act as a challenger or fact checker. Further, rigid time limits should not be imposed.

Professor Waddell believes that both the English and French debates in 2021 were utter failures in achieving goals. The format allowed almost no time for debate among leaders, but posed complicated questions to a single leader and imposed rigid time limits on answers. The many questioners, Waddell asserts, were antagonistic, disrespectful and were acting themselves as if they were the participants in the debate.

On the topic of antagonistic questions, I would be remiss if I did not mention the most antagonistic question of all, which is the one posed by the moderator to Bloc Québécois leader Yves‑François Blanchet in the English debate. The question uses the word “racism,” and the moderator asks Mr. Blanchet why he defends Bills 96 and 21 and why he supports these discriminatory laws. The question generated a strong response in the debate, generated outrage across Quebec in the following days and even a change in party support in Quebec in the election. How ironic it is that the English debate would have such an impact in Quebec.

The debates have problems. Still, the Leaders’ Debates Commission in its report on the 2021 debates points to some positive outcomes. In both 2019 and 2021, more people consumed the debates than was found for those problematic 2015 debates, and they generated very significant social media activity and comment. These debates can be considered the most important single events for the public in those campaigns outside of election day itself.

The post-debate research in 2021 does point to some positive impacts as well, but it also reveals that viewers did not learn about party platforms and promises from that debate — which is exactly what Canadians said they wanted to learn from those debates in the first place. They didn’t learn what they wanted to learn.

In light of this, the commission itself has concluded that the public interest has not necessarily been well served, and it concedes that it has not fully achieved the goal of what it calls overall debate integrity. So the many critics of those debates are not wrong.

Colleagues, there are many other topics to explore in the analysis of leaders’ debates, but I will end my comments today with a question about whether government should continue to play a role in election debates.

Is government involvement necessary to keep leaders’ debates as a major feature of our election campaigns? Can the commission make the changes that are clearly required to benefit citizens, or should debates be set up under another arrangement? Or should they return to the private sector entirely as is the case in most other countries of the world and was the case here before the Leaders’ Debates Commission was created?

Colleagues, I want to thank the experts who met with me and sent me research sources for this inquiry, including Leaders’ Debates Commissioner David Johnston and his team. Now, colleagues, I look forward to your comments and to your participation.

Hon. Donna Dasko rose pursuant to notice of November 24, 2021:

That she will call the attention of the Senate to the role of leaders’ debates in enhancing democracy by engaging and informing voters.

She said: Honourable senators, I note that this item is at day 15, and I am not prepared to speak at this time. Therefore, I move the adjournment of the debate in my name for the balance of my time.

(On motion of Senator Dasko, debate adjourned.)

(At 5:09 p.m., the Senate was continued until Tuesday, June 7, 2022, at 2 p.m.)

Hon. Donna Dasko: Honourable senators, I give notice that, two days hence:

I will call the attention of the Senate to the role of leaders’ debates in enhancing democracy by engaging and informing voters.